Which revolver/pistol?

Ozarker · Jul 20, 2002

It isn't a "view" at all. It is the absolute truth. You get tested and licensed for privileges such as driving. The Constitution doesn't grant the power to government to administer any tests or grant any permission prior to the exercise of a right. Do you need to be tested and licensed to practice your religion? Do you need to be tested and licensed to express your opinion?

Government was not granted and power to regulate the keeping and bearing of arms. Quite the contrary. It was specifically prohibited from doing so in the second amendment of the social contract agreed upon by the people when they ratified the Constitution. In fact, the people wouldn't ratify the original Constitution at all until an enumeration of individuals rights was added. That is why there were 10 amendments added before it was ratified and became the law of the land.

Current legal precedents that allow states to control the wearing of arms are based not on the Constitution, but on earlier precedents. And those precedents are based on precedents set when the courts said it was OK to ban free black men from possessing arms.

Missouri's original Constitution prohibited the government from even questioning the right of the people to keep and bear arms for deference. That changed during Reconstruction after the Civil War when the Constitution was amended and it was said that the right didn't justify the wearing of concealed weapons. Of course the authority to grant the privilege of carrying concealed was left up to local authorities, as it still is today, and all persons traveling through the state were exempted from the law. And who was traveling through the state in 1879 when the law was written? White Europeans headed west.

The law is still that way today. The local sheriff can commission you to carry concealed and all persons traveling through the state are exempt from the law prohibiting concealed carry.

The last officially sanctioned "Jim Crow" law on the books.

thumbtrap · Jul 21, 2002

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr>

Do you guys stick to the carbon pistol dies?

<hr></blockquote>

Some of my shooting buddies have gone as far as getting carbide dies for 223 (keeping the Junior Highpower team in ammo). They're quite spensive though, and still require case lube, according to Dillon. And only available in, suprise - the two calibers that dominate Highpower competition (223 and 308).

For pistol reloading though - it's the only way to go.

knucklehead · Jul 21, 2002

Hi guys - been out bush hogging for 6 hours. Yee-ha! I like to get my tan all at once!

I have not been reloading that much - off and on over a few years. I have mostly studied it and collected equipment and components here and there. I have .32 Mag, .38/357, .44, and a couple other die sets I can't remember. I always go for carbide because I am too lazy to lube. Give me all the advice you wish - publicly or otherwise. I'm particularly interested in those carbide .223 dies. There are a set of TC dies in 7mm TCU at the hardware store for $30.00 - I could probably get $10 off them since they have been there for a while. Who makes the TC dies? I have RCBS and Lee - the Lee dies seem O.K. but all I do is straight wall cases so far. I plan on loading for the 38, 44, 45LC, .223, 7mm TCU, and hopefully in the future, .243 & .308. I have only single stage presses, both Lees. I've spent many hours drooling over the Dillon and RCBS products.

Do I need a tumbler? Do I need to resize pistol cases? I have some of those hand held Lee mandrel and cutter sets for a couple calibers. I usually set a vernier caliper for the case length and do try fits on them quickly - all fit so far, but do they all need to be trimmed to the same length? I wouldn't think so in a revolver. So some bullets get seated a couple thou deeper - they should all have the same pressure, right (I'm thinking about them all having the same "closed" case volume)? I measure every charge into a beam scale pan with a dipper - I've gotten pretty good at tapping a few grains in for a perfect weigh. But we only shoot a few at a time - I'd like to get more time in with the 357, especially, so I'll probably set up the Forster measure soon. We are cleaning/rearranging the basement, and hopefully moving all the materials and big tools (like table saw) out to the garage, so there will be room for a permanent set up this Winter. I can shoot right off the back lawn - one of the reasons for the bush hogging. I'd like to shoot a couple cylinders full daily or nearly so - to get proficient with the 357.

I'm an eager student - let me have it!

RanchMan · Jul 21, 2002

Knucklehead -

I have RCBS and Lee 

About 90% of my dies is RCBS - just got in to a habit of buying them. A few years ago I went to Hornaday and while there is nothing wrong with my RCBS dies, I find I like the Hornadays a lot more - just seem easier to adjust I suppose. I'll echo the previous comments that carbide is the way to go. Although many do not, I use lube on those dies as well - just not that much trouble for the benefit it yields in my book.

Do I need a tumbler? 

Need? Well, there are some definite advantages, but folks have been reloading for years without them. Personally I prefer to use it vs. not.

Do I need to resize pistol cases? 

/w3tcompact/icons/hmm.gif Sounds like you are asking if you need to trim to length vs. resize. ('course there's different "flavors" of resizing - full length, neck, etc.) The short answer is "resize=yes", "trim=maybe."

With regards to trimming, it depends on a number of factors. If overall cartridge length is "over spec", most folks would say "trim." But just being over the "max" spec. isn't the only reason folks trim.

For example, since crimp is determined by how "deep" the cartridge goes in to the die when seating your bullet, if you have inconsistent lengths in cartridges, you'll have inconsistent degrees of crimp on each finished cartridge. This can lead to several different "issues." If the case is too long, (a) it may not fit or cycle properly, or worse, (b) the mouth of the case can help to "wedge" the bullet as it leaves the case. This is really bad because pressures can rise dramatically - which may (1) damage the gun, and/or (2) damage you.

Some may baulk and say "Aw, that's just for rifles!", but it applies to pistols as well. For example, I'd remind such folks that some cartridges, such as the 9mm, headspace on the case mouth. If your dies are adjusted "just right" for, say the minimum length case and you load a case that is excessively long, you may put way to much crimp on the case which can lead to the "wedge" situation I described above.

I wouldn't think so in a revolver. So some bullets get seated a couple thou deeper - they should all have the same pressure, right (I'm thinking about them all having the same "closed" case volume)? 

You can still run in to this same "wedge" condition in a revolver. I'm not sure what .357 you have, but look carefully at the internals of the cylinder. You'll probably notice a "ramp" within the cylinder from where the case goes to where the bullet sits. If your case extends too far "up" this ramp, you've got the scenario I described above. (Yes, I know folks are going to say “You use a roll crimp on .357, silly!” - but some folks use a taper crimp on .357 - after all, RCBS makes such a seating die - but that’s not the point. Regardless of crimp type, if it’s too far forward it can cause this issue.)

While you may not have this "wedge" issue with some cases (such as shooting .38 SPL in a .357 revolver), a difference in case length will still affect degree of crimp. Although most folks generally don't worry about it too much in this scenario, this will affect pressures & accuracy.

All this being said, the answer about "needing to trim" is still a "maybe." /w3tcompact/icons/hmm.gif I say this because most reloading manuals suggest that cases "need" to be trimmed after about 4-5 shots/reloads. There's a ton of "it depends" here as well (i.e. pressures, metallurgy, case design, dies used, etc.), so 4-5 may or may not be often enough.

Although generally not as applicable to pistol shooting, some (but not all) of your precision rifle shooters will trim each case after every shot to ensure consistency in accuracy. Of course, they often weigh every case to the nearest .1 grain and group them as well (e.g., more weight, more wall thickness, ergo higher pressures & inconsistency in shot placement). Of course, I'm not talking about your "average Joe deer hunter," but those guys that are going for fractional MOA groups. /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif Again, the reason behind trimming for this is accuracy and not safety issues.

Most of the reloading manuals say to trim "if necessary," taking in to account all of the potential issues in play. These same reloading books will go in to a fair amount of detail as to this subject, so I'd suggest you pick up a couple of current ones and compare what the manufacturers suggest. I don't mean to come across as "the sky is falling!" or anything like that, just that reloading, while it can be a very safe and satisfying hobby, can also be dangerous if certain precautions aren't followed.

As the old saying goes, "The Devil is in the details."

cp1969 · Jul 21, 2002

On a single stage press, I break the seat/crimp into two operations. If all you have is one die for this, you back it up until it no longer crimps and lower the seating stem to get the correct bullet depth. Then lower the die back down and raise the seating stem up until it touches nothing.

Crimp is important for many different reasons. In prevents bullet jump due to recoil and for heavy loads of slow powder, provides resistance to get the charge burning well. Poorly crimped loads show a lot of shot to shot variation.

The only way to get good crimping is to have the cases all be very nearly the same length, so trimming is important.

I never did have a tumbler, but used one a few times. I guess I figured it wasn't worth the effort as I never bought my own.

I used to be finicky about weighing powder until I conducted a few tests. I couldn't tell any statistical (or accuracy) difference from loads that thrown by the Dillon or RCBS measure.

CVHoss · Jul 22, 2002

Mark,
Sorry for the late response. I had a Cowboy Match yesterday and didn't get home until late last night. CP & Ranchman have already given you some great answers to most of your questions. I'll try to give you a little additional info or maybe a different take on some items.

 I'm particularly interested in those carbide .223 dies.

I've never used them in 223. If you were going to reload a lot of 223, they may be worth it but understand, YOU STILL HAVE TO LUBE THE CASES. Carbide dies eliminate lubing only on straight wall cases. Bottlenecked cases, even when used with a carbide die, must still be lubed. Whether the long life of a carbide 223 die is worth the extra expense is a question you'll need to answer yourself.

 the Lee dies seem O.K. but all I do is straight wall cases so far

Lee makes some good products and their dies work just fine for straight wall cases and non-critical bottleneck cases. For match grade ammunition in bottleneck cases or bottleneck ammo that must feed in an auto-loader (223 for AR-15), I'd suggest one of the other die makers. My personal preference for most situations are the Hornady dies. I've had extremely good luck with them.

 I've spent many hours drooling over the Dillon and RCBS products

For heavy duty chores like case forming, you can't beat a RCBS Rockchucker press. For a small step up for all but case forming, I like the Lyman Turret press. If you ever want to move to a progressive, bite the money bullet and buy a <A target="_blank" HREF=http://dillonprecision.com/>Dillon</A>. There simply is no better progressive press out there and their "No BS warranty" is exactly what they say. I currently have two Dillon XL 650s and one RL550. One 650 is set up for 45 Colt, the other for 45 ACP. I use the 550 for most other pistol caliber reloading as I shoot the other calibers in lower volume and the 550 is a little faster to switch calibers on. I also use the 550 for reloading 223. For all other rifle loading, I use a Lyman T-Mag turret press.

 Do I need a tumbler?

In my opinion, cleaning your brass is an essential part of the reloading process. Powder residue, dirt, grit, etc., will all build up on your cases and can lead to a malfunction. I have three of and they have served me very well over the years. They are inexpensive and do a good job. Or just go all out and get <A target="_blank" HREF=http://dillonprecision.com/template/p.cfm?maj=16&min=0&dyn=1&CFID=1404145&CFTOKEN=78588901>one of these so you can clean your brass and attract Graboids at the same time. (If you don't know what Graboids are, rent the movie Tremors/w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif.) For cases that require lubing, I'll tumble first to clean and then after resizing I'll tumble them for about 15 minutes to remove the lube. If you do this, just make sure that after the second tumbling you check the flash holes for media. It has a nasty habit of sticking in there and plugging up the flash hole.

 Do I need to resize pistol cases?

If you actually mean resize, yes. The only thing you can really get away without resizing (and it is actually beneficial to accuracy) is ammunition used in bolt action rifles. And even then, you need to neck size for good bullet retention. If you are talking about trimming, yes but usually only at two times. First, when you purchase new brass. You'd be surprised how inconsistent new brass can be. If you don't trim all of it, at least check it. Second, when the length exceeds the maximum. Most auto pistol rounds headspace on the case mouth. If they get too long, you'll end up with excessive headspace and possibly a ruptured case. To check case lengths, I'd suggest getting <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.midwayusa.com/midwayusa/applications/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?SaleItemID=481104>one of these</A> for each caliber you reload. They'll make checking them for max length much faster.

Now, for a couple of extras.

In one of your other posts, you mentioned using fillers in loads that don't fill the case. I highly recommend that you AVOID this at all costs. I can't think of one powder manufacturer who will recommend using fillers and the only equipment manufacturer that I am aware of who still talks about using fillers is Lyman. One of my favorite gun writers, Mike Venturino, has said that he has seen numerous firearms with "ringed" chambers which he attributes to the use of fillers with smokeless powder. Whenever possible, try to use a powder that will fill up the case as much as possible. Sometimes, like with the 45 Colt, this just can't be done. Powders such as AA XMP5744 will come close, but it's an extruded powder and doesn't meter well through a powder measure. The only reasons to be concerned about filling the case are (1) consistency and (2) the possibility of "detonation". Consistency can be a factor in pinpoint high-power rifle shooting, but the effect on accuracy from slightly different powder positions is negligible in pistol/revolver shooting. We could talk about theoretical detonation for days. It's like UFOs. Some people believe even though they've never seen. No powder manufacturer has been able to reproduce detonation in the laboratory. Mike Daly of Hodgdon Powder Co. has flat out said it doesn't exist. While I still think there may be something to it, I think the most plausible explanation of blown up guns, which have been attributed by some to detonation, actually concerns crimp. A SASS member has purchased equipment and done extensive testing in the area of low volume loads and detonation. To date, he has found no evidence to support detonation based solely on low volume charges. His theory based on his research is currently centered around bullet pull. I'll try to explain it as I understand it. When using a small charge in a large volume case, the powder can be spread out across the bottom of the case in a thin layer instead of being pressed up against the primer hole. If low bullet pull exists (improper sizing or insufficient crimp), when the primer ignites the initial blast from the primer jumps the bullet out of the case and jambs it into the rifling/forcing cone. The powder charge then ignites but instead of being able to build up pressure normally and give the bullet a running start into the rifling, it must try to start a bullet moving again that has already engaged the rifling and "boom", a blown up gun. Of course this all happens in milliseconds, but it is the best and most plausible explanation for what is attributed to detonation. If there's even a chance he's correct, the answer is simple. Good, firm crimps and correct neck expansion (usually about .002 under bullet diameter). Will using a heavier crimp shorten case life? Yes. You may only get 10 loadings out of your pistol brass instead of 15. Is the extra 5 loadings worth the risk of a blown gun and possible injury to the shooter or bystander? Not to me. For most calibers, though the initial cost is high, brass is the cheapest component in the reloading process due to the quantity of loadings from the one investment. For all calibers that require a good crimp, I highly recommend the <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.midwayusa.com/midwayusa/applications/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?SaleItemID=217484>Lee Factory Crimp die.</A> I have one of these for every caliber that requires a crimp and they do an outstanding job.

Well, that's enough opinion for now. If there's anything else you would like my opinion on (which with 50¢, may get you a cup of coffee /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif), don't hesitate to ask.

Hoss

fishman · Jul 22, 2002

Knucklehead,

You are getting some really, really good advice in the last few posts. Not much I can add except:

I have used Lee, Lyman, RCBS, Redding, and Hornady dies. While they all work fine, I much prefer the Hornady dies. They are much smoother when resizing, and I've never seen any scratches on my cases. For what it's worth, the last 6 die sets I've bought have been Hornady. The Lee Factory Crimp Die is a great idea, however.

While I have a progressive press (Hornady), I have yet to make any quality ammo with it. In fact, I have been completely unsuccessful. The single-stage I have works great, although it is slow.

For precision shooting, I would recommend a digital powder scale. For relatively low-volume shooting (Contender), you could do worse than a combo powder scale/dispenser. Basically, you key in the powder weight you need, and it's automatically dispensed. Nice.

It sounds like you have the means to purchase a $50 tumbler, so I recommend you do so. Otherwise, you will eventually scratch up a sizing die at the most inopportune moment.

I use the Lee case trimmer tools and find them to be pretty good. The appeal to me when I bought them was the low initial cost and the low cost to add additional calibers. However, if you plan on loading 6 or 8 calibers, you might just as well buy a case trimmer up front.

knucklehead · Jul 23, 2002

Ranchman, CP, CV, fishman - /w3tcompact/icons/shocked.gif/w3tcompact/icons/shocked.gif/w3tcompact/icons/shocked.gif - evidently I have some reading to do! I am generally interested in doing things precisely, so all comments from trimming to cleaning are much appreciated. Now that we are in Contenderland, the possibilities are magnifying. As I said, I'm mostly familiar with straight-wall reloading. We are going to get into case forming soon, as we are itching to make some 7mm-TCU loads. Setting up and organizing a reloading area is a Fall/Winter priority, especially since both boys are getting more interested in shooting. Like I said, I have a good library and a ton of head knowledge, but not much practical experience, so everything you say is valuable to me.

How would you guys like to start another firearms thread? I was thinking of doing so, and now that this thread seems to be quieting, it seem like a good time to do so. Which way do we go? I know nothing about shotgun reloading, but now that we have a ,410, a 20, and a couple 12's, it seems like a good time to be learning. I have a really old Lyman press, and the guy who gave it to me is going to find the paperwork and send it to me soon - there are absolutely no ID marks on it, but it generally looks like the Lee Loadall in that the stations are lined up left-riight, and the press lever is a double affair that extends up over the shot & powder bottles. It isn't a Lee, I think - too heavy & well made, but it is red. It was made in the 60's or 70's.

Thanks for the valuable info, and by the way, we've seen Tremors, Tremors II, and Tremors III several times each. I'm afraid the boys have been right there, too.