Whoops!

[jenkinsph]

It would be best if you cut in your ditches and form the crown before the gravel is delivered. The spread of gravel will follow your profile for better or worse, so it is better to have it profiled well before the gravel comes. Cutting in the ditches will give you material to form the crown. Then, when the gravel comes and gets spread, it will be pretty much the same depth from, edge to edge and in the middle.

Ditches are your friend. I use sumps/swales where there is no downhill for me to send the the water to.

I agree with shaping the driveway first. Get it where it works with ditches, diversions and culverts. Crown the driveway then see how it does after a rain. Fix any further issues with drainage when this is done then call in the gravel trucks. I recommend you go the trouble to find out which driver is the best at tailgating/spreading the gravel. A good truck driver can save you a ton of work. Particularly if you have few implements.

 

[hslogger]

We all know how frustrating it can be. It wasn't clear to me what the BASE is. Often the il informed figure they can just dump some inch or so crushed rock with fines (1"minus), pack it down and be done with it. When building a road especially in damp areas, it needs have what we call 3-4" open down. It looks like big ol chunks. That gets packed down and then capped with the finer crushed rock. If it doesn't have a crown or out slope, it can be messy, but the big rock base should still hold it together. Ditch here and ditch there and a culvert or two. Doggone it, that is all really important to have or it kind of goes to pot on ya.

 

[redman135]

I think you will need to add some rock to your drive first, as it is the low point so water will continue to scour it out other wise. Here we call it rotten rock or "all in" ,roughly shape it ,put the ditches then when the track has settled add 3/4" or 1/2" top layer.
Very over looked point. PRUNE the TREES along the track so when the truck is spreading it doesn't get caught on the branches. A 16' deck = 16' pruned height.
Lastly what is a "french drain"? I have not heard that term before.

 

[Grandad4]

I'd agree with the other comments about grading and ditching but would add a couple of ideas. First, it's hard to judge from photos but it seems like your drive is generally pretty narrow for good ditching to the side. The ditches will have to be cut at a sharper angle, posing a greater hazard for getting stuck and leading to more erosison over time. Taking out some of the trees might give you more space to lay down a better drive.

Second, it's likewise hard to see from pictures what the topography really looks like, and knowing the slopes, elevations and particularly the natural drainage pattern is important in figuring out where ditches and swales might go and how to place any culverts. Do some measuring, get an idea of the slopes and sketch out a basic layout of what you're going to do before you tear into it. You probably remember the old line, "Prior proper planning prevents..... etc.

Just my thoughts. Best of luck with it!

 

[the old grind]

Another vote to crown first, then cap. (BTDT) Removing base to 'start over' can mean much more compaction required during settling. (a lot of driving if relying on 'tire tracks' alone for that.) I was lucky to be able to crown well enough to redirect/evaluate/control runoff and don't expect to have to move 'topping' around much to spread evenly. Even the best 'lay' from the most skilled trucker won't distribute fines the best. They tend to settle-out quickly where dumped, and blades will push the larger bits away from there more than provide a uniform 'spread'. (BTDT. too)

Gravel will never be easy to plow (snow) w/o disturbing the surface, esp if soft/thawed under a heavy snow. (BTDT, again yesterday) Helps to have a precise bucket-level indicator and an adjustable stop on the 3PH. Back blade to crown, but iffy control when moving snow. Box blade may make things easier once you've tried/compared the two choices. (YMMV)

btw, Every time I touch up the neighbor's d'way (Summer) a few more fist sized rocks have worked their way to the surface. (Well, at least I got him to stop dumping drywall scraps into the low spots. :irked IMO it's best to leave what's there and build on it, esp when it's apparent how much fill will be needed to raise/build the crown above ditches/drains. Good luck!

(Got a 'concrete calculator' slide rule thingie to estimate how much top gravel to order?)

 

[kevin37b]

What I am looking at needs to be a flowline starting at the neighbor along the black line a swale ditch . Keep the water where it wants to run . A road does not have to be crowned , leave one side high as you have . I could fix that in a day with a MINI and 3 ft bucket . enjoy your posts and humility !

 

[airbiscuit]

What I am looking at needs to be a flowline starting at the neighbor along the black line a swale ditch . Keep the water where it wants to run . A road does not have to be crowned , leave one side high as you have . I could fix that in a day with a MINI and 3 ft bucket . enjoy your posts and humility !

Most of my road is crowned. There are a couple of spots where the road slants one way (and the water runs across it) and it is not crowned there. No matter what, there is a (shallow) ditch or a swale everywhere so there is a place for the water to leave the road surface completely. It's not something that happened overnight.
I just kept making depressions for the water to drain - some nice and contoured, some just big ol holes. Got to be OCD about it - driving along in the middle of storms to see how the water flowed. Now the road stays in good shape with very little maintenance.

 

[jenkinsph]

Even the best 'lay' from the most skilled trucker won't distribute fines the best. They tend to settle-out quickly where dumped, and blades will push the larger bits away from there more than provide a uniform 'spread'. (BTDT. too)

I would agree that dry gravel will allow the fines to settle out very quickly. But damp material is not as hard to deal with and less trouble with the fines settling out quickly.

The OP has a small grader blade and a fel and con not add implements at this time. What would you propose as a better way to distribute the base course (3/4 to fines)?

 

[Gcorron]

Are they building any roads in your area? If so, find the super and see if you can beg, borrow, some of this:

Road Construction Geotextile Fabric - Buy Polypropylene Geotextile Fabric,Geotextile,Pp Geotextile Product on Alibaba.com

Where your water is running, cut out about 10-20 feet, down about a foot, lay a piece of the cloth down, put about 6" of #3 rip rap down, then cover it with your 21A, or #57 with fines as some say, even though that can be a lesser material. Good idea to work a piece of drainage pipe, the solid kind, not the corrugated, in there to give the water a path.

You can't afford a roll of that but we used to throw away small rolls all the time. That will be just about a permanent cure, unless you just have LOTS of water flowing, then you've got to get rid of that first.

If you have access, CTA would be the best top cover, it has 7% cementitious material in it and hardens like concrete. It does need to be rolled to work properly though.

I have operated lots of equipment, but that does not make me an operator. In 96 after about a 3' snow, I grabbed a road grader and was helping to clear roads. One of the real operators finally caught up with me and told me, in no uncertain terms, to get OFF the grader before I hurt someone else, the road, or myself!!! I was slightly insulted

How do you get to Carnegie Hall?? PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE!

George

 

[JRobyn]

Regarding tree trimming along your rural road/driveway - everywhere that it is feasible, cut down any and all trees along the sides, back at least 8-10ft or more. The main reason is to allow sunlight and airflow onto the roadbed to more quickly dry it. Other advantages are to not have something to run into with your vehicle or tractor should the road get slick, and to not have tree roots heaving up your nicely groomed surface (once you achieve that).

 

[12Bravo]

Well, while the driveway looked good when I finished it. It now sucks! Bumpy as crap. This blade will take sometime to get used to using. I might ask my neighbor to help me with the learning curve and make sure I have it set up right.

He normally grades the driveway, or at least the lower section and his. But now that I have my own, I want to learn.

Taking out the large rocks seems to actually hurt the driveway. But with time I'm hoping I can fill the holes and smooth out where the rocks were. I literally pulled out 30-40 head size or larger rocks out of the driveway.

 

[Grandad4]

One scraper blade trick I learned from a farmer buddy is to reverse the blade when trying to get an even spread of gravel, crusher run, etc. Having the face of the blade angled back instead of forward allows it to float instead of digging divots out as you go. If you haven't tried that, it may help you get your material better dispersed. Box blade does that kind of work better, but you can do a decent job with the scraper blade with some practice. Nice and slow works better than hurry-up quick. Also, big chunky rocks and debris interferes with the leveling process. Do as much as you can to get that kind of material out. Keep practicing... it's an acquired skill!

 

[12Bravo]

One scraper blade trick I learned from a farmer buddy is to reverse the blade when trying to get an even spread of gravel, crusher run, etc. Having the face of the blade angled back instead of forward allows it to float instead of digging divots out as you go. If you haven't tried that, it may help you get your material better dispersed. Box blade does that kind of work better, but you can do a decent job with the scraper blade with some practice. Nice and slow works better than hurry-up quick. Also, big chunky rocks and debris interferes with the leveling process. Do as much as you can to get that kind of material out. Keep practicing... it's an acquired skill!

If the rain holds off I will try that today.

 

[12Bravo]

Well, here's an update for the driveway.

I broke down and got a Box Blade, 5'. Took well over 30-40 passes to get all the large rocks pulled out of the driveway, even broke the tip off of one of the tines. Just the corner of one tine, so not to worries about it.

After pulling as many large rocks as I could I rolled the top link back and pulled tines up one hole and then started to move material with it. Smoothed out really nicely! Was rather surprised!

BUT! Now after last nights rain, the driveway is super soft! Like my boot and dogs paws sink in about 1/2" and even 1-2" in some areas.

This is what I am thinking and maybe you all good fellas can point me in the right direction. I just ordered 10 tons of 2-3" gravel. Plan to make a lower spot on the right side of driveway and then make some channels about 4' wide across driveway and fill with the large rocks. Then once money permits bring in some more 2-3" stone to fill the whole driveway. Drive on that for 6 months or so and get 3/4" with fine and cover all the large stones except the side that I made the low spot for drainage.

What say you?

 

[jenkinsph]

Curious about the large rocks, were these sticking up when you started the project? Could you have covered over these rocks and left them alone?

About the soft drive after the rain. I would not expect it to be firm without rolling and packing and would rather try to firm it up before putting the 2 to 3 inch rock on it. This larger 2 and 3 inch rock could be a pain to deal with later on coming up through the finished driveway. I suspect a thicker layer of base course 3/4 to fines packed down would work better. Get this base crowned and shaped to allow quick run off and get it smooth. Then add 3/4 clean rock on top of that about "one rock high".

 

[jenkinsph]

I should add that drainage of the water would be the first goal and any culverts or other diversions for run off should be done first. When you are sure this works correctly then build up the base with a crown and compact it.

 

[12Bravo]

Curious about the large rocks, were these sticking up when you started the project? Could you have covered over these rocks and left them alone?

About the soft drive after the rain. I would not expect it to be firm without rolling and packing and would rather try to firm it up before putting the 2 to 3 inch rock on it. This larger 2 and 3 inch rock could be a pain to deal with later on coming up through the finished driveway. I suspect a thicker layer of base course 3/4 to fines packed down would work better. Get this base crowned and shaped to allow quick run off and get it smooth. Then add 3/4 clean rock on top of that about "one rock high".

The main issue was water run off and washing my smaller stone away. The shape of the driveway makes it hard to crown, it needs to be sloped to one side or the other with a drainage area next to driveway. Only way I know to do this was to break all the large rocks out of the driveway, which was making the driveway really rough. The little rock wash down drive and large rocks exposed, grading little rock back to the top was a pain and didn't work very well. Watched the neighbor try before I got my tractor.

With little rocks removed and now bringing in larger stone as a base. I want to build a thicker large stone base and then compact with driving on it for a few months. Once I feel it is nicely compacted then I will put a 6" 3/4 w/fine base on it and compact with a roller of some sort. All the while keeping the slope of the driveway heading towards the creek where the water wants to go to anyways.

 

[jenkinsph]

You can crown the driveway with a center high point or a side high point depending on your needs. As long as you can keep the water from running in the driveway and get it to divert around it you should be good. You could use the larger rock (2 to 3) as long as you are willing to add a thick enough layer of the 3/4 to fines over it. Most people can't seem to spend the money for enough gravel to do this. Just make sure you don't rip to deep and bring up the larger stones in subsequent years grading the driveway.

 

[AxleHub]

The main issue was water run off and washing my smaller stone away. The shape of the driveway makes it hard to crown, it needs to be sloped to one side or the other with a drainage area next to driveway. Only way I know to do this was to break all the large rocks out of the driveway, which was making the driveway really rough. The little rock wash down drive and large rocks exposed, grading little rock back to the top was a pain and didn't work very well. Watched the neighbor try before I got my tractor.

With little rocks removed and now bringing in larger stone as a base. I want to build a thicker large stone base and then compact with driving on it for a few months. Once I feel it is nicely compacted then I will put a 6" 3/4 w/fine base on it and compact with a roller of some sort. All the while keeping the slope of the driveway heading towards the creek where the water wants to go to anyways.

12bravo, I've been trying to follow along on your efforts . . . but a few definitions would be helpful.

1. The large rocks you are taking out - how big are they? Are they 6 inch or bowling ball sized or flat step rock sized. I've seen the words larger rock used to apply to the road. but 2 - 3" is normally what all driveways use as "base rock". Then you use "3/4 minus" rock as finishing over the base rock.

2. Where is the water pressure direction? Does it follow the driveway or does the water run at the driveway? Does it funnel to specific points or does it pressure all along the driveway? Normally if the water pressure runs with the driveway - you try to "case harden" the pressure side to prevent erosion pulling the material down along the driveway. "Hardening the edge" with base and then pressure build with 3/4 minus on that same edge keeps erosion down and keeps water from crossing. If the water pressure is "at the road" - normally you try to make "crossing" or "pressure reduction" bridges of base rock plus a quality compost. This allows water to transfer across the driveway in pressured areas while the base rock and compost combine like a control dam. Then 3/4 minus is used as a hard topping where these are done. In addition some slotted drain tile put in that same crossing area helps transfer heavier water rains etc. from one side of the driveway to the other at those key points.

3. The idea of base base rock on top of a really soft road bed/driveway bed is good if you can drive those 2" to 3" rocks down down down - in effect trying to create a weaker version of starting the driveway with base rock before anything else. TN has freezing and gravel is notorious for going soft when thawed and pushing big rock to the surface. So if you are trying to "harden" the road - compacting base rock into soft driveways can help . . . . but the real key is understanding the direction of your water pressure and creating those relief needs. Think of it like your hydraulic lines on the tractor - without a relief valve process- pressure could build anywhere and it would be bad for hydraulic lines. Water creates hydraulic pressure to be relieved. As an example - lots of tight gravel creates dam - and with no leaching or relief - either the dam holds under pressure or it blows out anywhere it can. In sandy soil - good quality compost allows the soil to hold together better - and in heavy soils - good quality compost allows water transfer without erosion. We used the principle on our heavy clay soils in our steep pitched slopes that bottleneck flowed water - as we were building.

 

[lennyzx11]

Curious about the large rocks, were these sticking up when you started the project? Could you have covered over these rocks and left them alone?

About the soft drive after the rain. I would not expect it to be firm without rolling and packing and would rather try to firm it up before putting the 2 to 3 inch rock on it. This larger 2 and 3 inch rock could be a pain to deal with later on coming up through the finished driveway. I suspect a thicker layer of base course 3/4 to fines packed down would work better. Get this base crowned and shaped to allow quick run off and get it smooth. Then add 3/4 clean rock on top of that about "one rock high".

I have some experience with this also. I ripped out my "landing area" in front of the garage to stop water going under the garage door. Then put it all back about a 1-2" lower.
Used the bb and advice from here and it looked AWESOME MAGNIFICENT!

Then we got 2" rain in one day. I went to town and upon return home, stepped outta the truck and was in driveway to my ankles!

It's gonna have to be compacted. I read somewhere but I'm sure better advice will come from the guys here to compact it after every 3-4" raise with loose fill/gravel before adding more and then compact the top layer as the final step.
I ain't no expert but I read this all on the Internet! So it's gotta be true.