Why are TYM and Branson so much less??

[DavesTractor]

You could make that argument, but typically rebadging is considered to be taking someone else's product and putting your name on it. That does and has happened in the tractor market, but more typically the various brands are subcontracting companies like TYM to supply a tractor fitted to their brands specific requirements. The TYM supplied Mahindras have different engines, sheet metal, tire packages and equipment levels than the TYM version on the same chassis. Similarly, the New Holland and Case IH tractors are not exactly the same as what LS offers, even though all three brands are built by LS. It can be very confusing to find that you have purchased an Indian branded tractor that was built in Korea using a Japanese engine, but that is how things work in today's world.

Well said.

 

[GirlWhoWantsTractor]

While it is true that TYM builds a lot of products and has always purchased engines and some other components instead of making them, TYM builds a completed tractor in Korea and ships them to the USA. This "final assembly" in the USA is just an hour or two of work. De-crate, install tires, stand the ROPS, install steering wheel. Many Mahindra models are truly rebadged TYMs, with minor differences. Mahindra buys enough TYM product that they get a different grill, different decals of course, different seat and so forth. The TYM products are not assembled in a Mahindra factory, unless you consider the decrating work I described above to be assembly.

To buy a TYM via Mahindra has the advantage of great parts support, long warranty and a more developed dealer base as opposed to the fledgling TYM dealer network.

Worldwide Mahindra actually builds the vast majority of the tractors they sell in their own plants. Even casting their own engine blocks. They are very much a manufacturer. In the USA, they do sell quite a few TYM and Mitsu products as well as M&M built units.

You reference John Deere. For decades the smaller John Deere tractors were built in Japan by Yanmar. Entirely. To JD specs of course, but this was not a JD factory.

This is just normal stuff in the tractor world and has been for decades and decades.

I just want to make sure I understand. You're saying that for Mahindra, the Mitsu engines and other parts built by other companies are all shipped to the TYM factory, and that TYM makes some components as well, then completely assembles the tractor and then ships it back to the U.S.? (It is very hard to ferret out this kind of information.....)

Even if that is the case, I believe the company that DESIGNS the product, decides which components it uses and who builds those components, has a right to the brand. For example if my company "Modern Lightbulbs, Inc." designs and patents a new LED light, then contracts with "Acme Manufacturing Co" to manufacture, package, and ship them, you wouldn't say they were "rebadged Acme lightbulbs" would you? Who designs the tractor, who decides which models are coming out and which will be discontinued, who decides whether it's a Mitsu engine or a Cummins? If the answer to that for Mahindra is "TYM" then I would say yes, that is a rebadged TYM tractor.

In any case, as you said, the important thing is whether it's a good tractor, well supported, suits your needs, etc. It's just that I see terms thrown around like "made in the USA" (when they're not) and some brands denigrated as "nothing but a rebadged ________" when I believe the truth is much more complicated than that.

Thank you for your input.

 

[DavesTractor]

I just want to make sure I understand. You're saying that for Mahindra, the Mitsu engines and other parts built by other companies are all shipped to the TYM factory, and that TYM makes some components as well, then completely assembles the tractor and then ships it back to the U.S.? (It is very hard to ferret out this kind of information.....)

Even if that is the case, I believe the company that DESIGNS the product, decides which components it uses and who builds those components, has a right to the brand. For example if my company "Modern Lightbulbs, Inc." designs and patents a new LED light, then contracts with "Acme Manufacturing Co" to manufacture, package, and ship them, you wouldn't say they were "rebadged Acme lightbulbs" would you? Who designs the tractor, who decides which models are coming out and which will be discontinued, who decides whether it's a Mitsu engine or a Cummins? If the answer to that for Mahindra is "TYM" then I would say yes, that is a rebadged TYM tractor.

In any case, as you said, the important thing is whether it's a good tractor, well supported, suits your needs, etc. It's just that I see terms thrown around like "made in the USA" (when they're not) and some brands denigrated as "nothing but a rebadged ________" when I believe the truth is much more complicated than that.

Thank you for your input.

It was easier a few years ago. The Mitsu built tractors sold by Mahindra were built entirely by Mitsu, including engines. Shipped to the USA where the tires, roll bar, steering wheel and sometimes battery were installed. Spec'd out by Mahindra, Mahindra color and so forth. TYM, same thing, except TYM has always used someone elses engine, Daedong, Yanmar, etc. When the Tier IV thing happened, Mahindra developed it's own solution with a new common rail engine with no DPF. On tractors over 19kW, the Mahindra engine was a very good choice. Mahindra shipped engines from India to Korea and Japan to be installed in the >25.48 HP size, up to about 75 HP. That muddied the waters a little as far as making this explanation simple.

But regardless of the builder of the engine, when the tractors arrive at the USA DC, they are complete tractors, less the items I have already mentioned. I've been to many of the plants overseas personally, and I owned the very first independent distribution center for Mahindra. Now all of the DCs are independently owned except for the big one in Texas at the USA HQ.

Nothing wrong with rebranding or rebadging. A lot of John Deere's excavators are built by Hitachi. A lot of their small tractors have been built by Yanmar. Most of the majors do this.

Kubota pretty much builds there own stuff. I believe early on Kubota had a Fiat derived orchard tractor and there may have been some other minor collaboration, but far and away Kubota is a manufacturer of their own product. I see that as a good thing. If there is a design or product quality issue, fingers do not need to be pointed outside the walls of Kubota.

Branson is similar to Kubota, but a ton smaller, in that they make most everything on the tractor. Even the Cummins A series engines are built by them. I think Kioti is pretty much a sole source tractor as well.

 

[Tennsawdust]

It certainly gets complicated. I would imagine that Mahindra is specifying the use of the Mitsubishi engine (especially since they apparently own a stake in Mitsubishi). Mitsubishi has design responsibility for the engine and they market it to a number of companies. TYM has design responsibility for the chassis and transmission. TYM manufactures the basic tractor unit then ships it to the US where it is fitted out with market specific items. Some of the Mahindra loaders are US sourced. Mahindra is the one who picks all the pieces and contracts to have it all put together, so final responsibility and ownership is theirs.

It is much the same with cars. That Chevy may have JTEKT (Toyota) power steering, Continental ABS brakes, a transmission jointly developed with Ford and will certainly have some Denso (Toyota again) electronics in it. The C class Mercedes uses some Toyota seating components and its engine is built at a Nissan factory. No manufacturer makes, or even designs, 100% of the parts in what they sell.

 

[prof fate]

Well said.

when GM owned saab and rebadged their SUV and a subaru as SAABs that what they did too - different sheetmetal, interior, name plate, warranty, dealer, etc.
But the engineering was GM for the one and subaru for the other.

The ford probe was made and designed by mazda but to ford's specifications.
The previous Escape was also a japanese vehicle, not a 'ford' vehicle, and it too was sold as a mazda I believe.

GM is great for taking a platform and tweaking the exterior looks and interior and selling them under multiple names..sometimes the changes are minor and other times dramatic. The Escalade is a Tahoe/Suburban.

the Hummer H2 was also a suburban under the sheet metal.

The mazda B series pickup was a ford ranger.

 

[Tennsawdust]

It was easier a few years ago. The Mitsu built tractors sold by Mahindra were built entirely by Mitsu, including engines. Shipped to the USA where the tires, roll bar, steering wheel and sometimes battery were installed. Spec'd out by Mahindra, Mahindra color and so forth. TYM, same thing, except TYM has always used someone elses engine, Daedong, Yanmar, etc. When the Tier IV thing happened, Mahindra developed it's own solution with a new common rail engine with no DPF. On tractors over 19kW, the Mahindra engine was a very good choice. Mahindra shipped engines from India to Korea and Japan to be installed in the >25.48 HP size, up to about 75 HP. That muddied the waters a little as far as making this explanation simple.

But regardless of the builder of the engine, when the tractors arrive at the USA DC, they are complete tractors, less the items I have already mentioned. I've been to many of the plants overseas personally, and I owned the very first independent distribution center for Mahindra. Now all of the DCs are independently owned except for the big one in Texas at the USA HQ.

Nothing wrong with rebranding or rebadging. A lot of John Deere's excavators are built by Hitachi. A lot of their small tractors have been built by Yanmar. Most of the majors do this.

Kubota pretty much builds there own stuff. I believe early on Kubota had a Fiat derived orchard tractor and there may have been some other minor collaboration, but far and away Kubota is a manufacturer of their own product. I see that as a good thing. If there is a design or product quality issue, fingers do not need to be pointed outside the walls of Kubota.

Branson is similar to Kubota, but a ton smaller, in that they make most everything on the tractor. Even the Cummins A series engines are built by them. I think Kioti is pretty much a sole source tractor as well.

I like to call that cross-pollination. It happens in every industry. If the other guy has it figured out sometimes you just buy it from him. There is a little company called Brown Stove in Cleveland TN. They make the little "apartment size" cook stoves. It is what they do for a living and the are pretty good at it. If you buy one of those stoves from any brand there is a good chance it was actually built by Brown Stove. The compact tractor market just isn't big enough for everyone to justify developing their own line and setting up a factory to make them. It isn't like they are making Camrys where the volumes are 20,000 a month. I would bet that several of the brands barely do that total in a year. That won't even come close to paying for the tooling, let alone the engineering work. That is why there are just a handful of companies actually doing the manufacturing. It just makes good business sense. At the same time for companies like Yanmar, TYM and LS, they don't have enough volume on their own to justify the manufacturing footprint, but by subcontracting that capacity to others they gain good economies of scale.

 

[GirlWhoWantsTractor]

That makes sense.

 

[DavesTractor]

I like to call that cross-pollination. It happens in every industry. If the other guy has it figured out sometimes you just buy it from him. There is a little company called Brown Stove in Cleveland TN. They make the little "apartment size" cook stoves. It is what they do for a living and the are pretty good at it. If you buy one of those stoves from any brand there is a good chance it was actually built by Brown Stove. The compact tractor market just isn't big enough for everyone to justify developing their own line and setting up a factory to make them. It isn't like they are making Camrys where the volumes are 20,000 a month. I would bet that several of the brands barely do that total in a year. That won't even come close to paying for the tooling, let alone the engineering work. That is why there are just a handful of companies actually doing the manufacturing. It just makes good business sense. At the same time for companies like Yanmar, TYM and LS, they don't have enough volume on their own to justify the manufacturing footprint, but by subcontracting that capacity to others they gain good economies of scale.

I think you nailed it.

 

[Gary Fowler]

The wifes X744 says "made in usa" "moline Il" on the serial number tag. The engine is a Japan Yanmar.

I think they said "compact tractors", your X744 is just a glorified riding lawnmower and falls well short of being a compact. Might be vaguely considered as a sub-compact.

 

[DavesTractor]

Not a tractor (X744) for the purposes of our discussion, but pretty cool to have a diesel lawn tractor. Those are good little rigs and built in the USA to boot. Water cooled diesel vs air cooled Kohler/Briggs, I like it.

I just bought a diesel Walker mower for my lawn. I get tired of messing with those little air cooled gas engines.