Why can't Toolcat use the Digger?

[dannyk]

Why can\'t Toolcat use the Digger?

I have been using a Bobcat 753 skidsteer (43 hp, with steel tracks) with a digger attachment. The one I use is the Kasco Rooter, but it is similar in design and purpose to the Bobcat Digger. This is an extremely useful tool for digging holes for planting, removing rocks and small stumps, and digging trenches.

Over the next year or so, I may be interested in switching to a loader that is a bit easier on turf. I especially like the Toolcat, but I notice that the Digger is not approved for use on either the Toolcat or the A300, both loaders with all-wheel steer, in spite of the fact that both these machines have a greater lifting capacity than my 753.

Is the all-wheel steer related to the fact that the Digger is not approved for these units? Do I need to be considering a 40-hp tractor instead of the Toolcat? (I was originally told about the Kasco Rooter by a poster on this board who used one quite successfully with his New Holland TC40D tractor.)

Thanks for any information.

Danny

 

[BrianSouthernMD]

Re: Why can\'t Toolcat use the Digger?

dannyk,
I don't know why Bobcat hasn't yet formally approved any Bobcat Diggers for either the A300 or the Toolcat 5600. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif Thoughts anyone? But their pdf Digger brochure indicates the previously offered A220 all-wheel-steer loader is approved! /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif I'd investigate further before use, but don't assume Digger use is not safe or prudent on the A300 or Toolcat AWS models just because the formal Bobcat approval hasn't yet been made and/or announced for that attachment. And don't assume the Web site compatibility info is entirely complete, either.

I know Bobcat has been hesitant to approve attachments with dig depths of 4 feet or more for the Toolcat. For example, Bobcat has approved the LT213 Bobcat Trencher (4-8 inch trenches) with a 3-ft. dig depth for the 5600, but not the 4-ft. dig depth LT313 and LT405 models (these 6-12 inch trenchers are approved for the A300).

But with the recent introduction of the C-series Toolcat with revised lift arm and curl mechanisms and much more breakout force, many more attachments are being formally approved. Expanded Toolcat uses are being endorsed. In fact, in an earlier thread BobcatBoy had indicated he's heard that almost all items (except some "backhoes" and concrete breakers and ?) approved for S130 and S150 SSLs are now fine for the 5600C and 5600TC.

BTW, I use a small Markham Welding stump and grubbing bucket to dig with my Toolcat B-series (but I don't go real deep)! Keep those questions and comments coming as you ponder your next machine! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[BrianSouthernMD]

Re: Why can\'t Toolcat use the Digger?

dannyk,
I looked up your Kasco Rooter. It's very similar to my Markham Welding Stump and Grubbing Bucket, which I successfully use to dig with my Toolcat! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Both the Kasco and Markham Welding designs are different than that of the deeper-dig-depth Bobcat Diggers.

 

[dannyk]

Re: Why can\'t Toolcat use the Digger?

Thanks, Brian. I appreciate your thoughts. It's helpful to know that you can use a similar bucket on your Toolcat.

I am curious to know, when you are digging, do you run out of traction or horsepower first? For example, with my tractor, I always run out of traction (wheels slip) before the engine rpms start to decline. But with my tracked skidsteer, engine rpms dip (loss of power) before I lose traction. I would guess the Toolcat would be more like my tractor.

Thanks again,
Danny

 

[BrianSouthernMD]

Re: Why can\'t Toolcat use the Digger?

danny,
Yea, the Toolcat is more like a tractor than a tracked machine in that respect. The Toolcat is incredibly versatile with its compatible attachments and it can even handle some digging with the grubbing buckets like we own or certain mini-hoes, but there are limits in this area.

If you need to dig much deeper or dig for most of your machine usage, rent or buy a mini-excavator (in addition to your Toolcat for everything else!) /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[dannyk]

Re: Why can\'t Toolcat use the Digger?

Here is a response that I received from Bobcat (via their website contact page) regarding use of the digger on the Toolcat:

"Because of the suspension system on the Toolcat, it was determined that it would not meet some customers digging performance. Therefore, it was not approved. On the A300 I believe it was just an oversight. Please let us know if you have any additional questions."

This confirms my belief that Bobcat should offer a Toolcat of the same size and ROC but without the suspension system and ability to travel at 18 mph. Such a unit could tackle heavier duty tasks, and many property owners have no need to travel so fast.

I have never needed a suspension system to tool around on my 50 acres. Of course, I don't travel very fast, either! But even in my Bobcat 753 skidsteer, which many people consider to have a very rough ride, I find that my optional suspension SEAT provides ample comfort.

I would hate to see the 4600 turn out to be another unit that can't use the digger attachment.

These comments, of course, simply represent my own needs and experience.

Danny

 

[bam747]

Re: Why can\'t Toolcat use the Digger?

Hummm...

Maybe Bobcat could modify the Toolcat's suspension so that it could be locked up for heavy digging work.

Sounds like a potential rev D modification to me! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[BrianSouthernMD]

Re: Why can\'t Toolcat use the Digger?

dannyk,
Thanks for posting the Digger use info you received from Bobcat Company.

There are always tradeoffs in a multi-purpose machine. I've gotten used to and like the Toolcat's suspension, and am still able to do significant work with lots of attachments. Of course digging is done with a bit more care and some limits. But my Toolcat works around 168 acres of varying terrain rather than 50 acres, so I guess I appreciate the suspension and higher travel speed a bit more! /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[dannyk]

Re: Why can\'t Toolcat use the Digger?

Of course, Brian, I am not disagreeing with you. Bobcat has very effectively targeted large property owners, municipalities, and landscapers with the excellent Toolcat. But, hey, you already have your machine! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif And I'm trying to speak for people with, say, 10-80 acres. This is a vast market also, judging by compact tractor sales.

And what I would like to see is a unit with equivalent working abilities to the S130 or S150 that isn't going to tear up turf and that can use skid steer attachments. And tractor loaders don't cut it for me.

So far there are few machines that meet those capabilities. The Kubota R series loaders are interesting, but quite expensive and too tall for my garage. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif These loaders can also use a backhoe. The A300 is just overkill in too many ways. Gehl has some new wheel loaders, but these are also too large and heavy for the landowners I'm speaking of.

The 4600 is (according to my Bobcat sales rep) going to be narrower than the 5600, and so I doubt it will have adequate lifting and digging capabilities for my use. I hope I'm wrong.

I have a solution! Offer a 5600 (call it the 5000 or whatever) and delete the suspension. A good suspension SEAT could be standard. Costs could be further reduced by simplifying the tranny. People with less land don't have to go as fast! And we don't need seating for two, although it could be an option.

One other idea: On my skid steer, I can easily remove and re-install the door, the side windows, and a top panel, so I don't need air conditioning in the summer. In the winter, I can put them all back on quickly, and I have a heated cab. (I'm obviously speaking from a northern Minnesota perspective here.) It seems to me it wouldn't be too hard to have similar flexibility with the Toolcat. No doors in summer means easier in and out.

Is Bobcat going to target this market? Stay tuned.

Danny

 

[dannyk]

Re: Why can\'t Toolcat use the Digger?

I'm just going to add two points to my previous post.

First, the interest in PowerTrac is ample evidence that there is a market for the machine I described above.

Second, to save even more money, substitute front-wheel-steer for all-wheel-steer. Sure the AWS is nice. But consider a 40-hp tractor with loader and rear weight on the three point. It is longer than the Toolcat, yet has only front-wheel-steer.

Danny

 

[IslandTractor]

Re: Why can\'t Toolcat use the Digger?

As you pointed out Brian, there are trade offs. It does seem to me however that Bobcat is pretty clear on how they designed and marketed the toolcat. The website shows it as primarily used on prepared grounds and maintaining roads, hauling stuff etc rather than as a general purpose ground engaging construction tool. Toolcat webpage

I would imagine that while most of the particicpants on this forum are using the toolcats for personal use and try to make it a jack of all trades, that most toolcats are probably bought by large institutions to help grounds crews maintain rather than clear land or as a construction tool. It seems optimized for that type of activity rather than being out on the farm or digging. Much better for many things than a tractor TLB set up but not a substitute for everything the TLB can do.

 

[BrianSouthernMD]

Re: Why can\'t Toolcat use the Digger?

dannyk and IslandTrader,
I notice my Bobcat Toolcat elicits very favorable impressions from many different people with diverse needs. The current Toolcat 5600 and the upcoming 4600 address the needs of two sub-groups. But Bobcat can build even further on the Toolcat's favorable reactions in two ways:

(1) expand the Toolcat product line model range -- for example, introduce models to suit the target market of 5 - 50 acre property owners and contracting pros who want Toolcat convenience and comfort as well as a different set of applications like more digging and heavy-duty work (so maybe remove suspension, etc., but still retain essence of inital Toolcat concept) and other tasks done well by CUTs;

(2) "Toolcatify" other product lines such as skid-steer loaders, all-wheel-steer loaders, TTCs and mini-excavators by adding things people like from the Toolcat, such as comfort and convenience, easy entry & exit, strong aux. hydraulics, multi-purpose possibilities, etc., without fully turning these other products into multi-purpose Toolcats.

Bobcat Company could actually pursue both strategic initiatives simultaneously to stay ahead in the compact vehicle market. /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif Bobcats would become attractive to even more market segments, including people who would otherwise buy either PowerTracs or traditional CUTs or TLBs. /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

 

[keeney]

Re: Why can\'t Toolcat use the Digger?

In terms of voting for a smaller Toolcat, I agree with most of the suggestions. Especially the removable doors and cab glass (I'm from MN too - no true need for air conditioning, but heat is nice).

I have to disagree and say that keeping some of its UTV qualities are important. Otherwise you might as well look at small wheel-loaders like Powertrac and such. That means keeping seating for two, keeping at least moderate travel speed (12 to 15 MPH?), keeping some suspension (even if its not full 4-wheel independent) and keeping the cargo bed.

Also, I would think that front-only steering with a mower on the front would be a bit awkward. For example, trying to trim tight to a tree, the back of the machine would "cut the corner" and run into the tree. Rear-steer or all-wheel steer is better for front-mounted mowers. Look at how all the purpose-built front-mowing machines do it.

- Rick

 

[IslandTractor]

Re: Why can\'t Toolcat use the Digger?

Brian,

It ain't difficult to see why Toolcats get positive responses. They have that same swiss army knife appeal that the PowerTracs do and they have a climate controlled cab and a great dealer network. /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

I guess my point was that someone who thinks they can just substitute a Toolcat for a TLB is going to run into some disappointments. I know the Toolcat is very capable but it is noteworthy that any engineer who expected a fairly heavy vehicle to be "off road" (and I am not meaning to exclude pasture land or fields) would have used bigger tires so you wouldn't get stuck in mud and also to generally increase traction. Those same bigger tires would significantly worsen the road handling so it seems pretty clear to me the Toolcat is optomized for a different type of terrain than a farm tractor. It also, as pointed out in this thread, is not designed for a backhoe or mini hoe type attachment, again apparently because the suspension set up to make that work would be detrimental to road handling.

Please don't get me wrong, I can easily see how someone could do a needs analysis and decide the Toolcat was, well, the cat's meow. But they had better be clear that they will not be buying a TLB equivalent. I know a lot of you guys are using them successfully to clear land but I imagine that is stretching the design a bit. At least it is difficult to see any advantage of the Toolcat compared to a less expensive 50hp TLB (with cab /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif) in that particular setting especially when there are stumps and saplings >2-3 inches to deal with. However, one possible advantage of the Toolcat even in that setting would be relative stability on slopes. I do fully appreciate the "ranch vehicle" pluses for the Toolcat and for those functions it clearly excels where the tractor is rather pathetic.

My main point: people who think of buying Toolcats should not be snowed because they are so cool (which they are) but because they have determined that they really need this vehicle rather than a TLB. Of course we'd all like to have at least one of each but in the meantime we need to choose which one will accomplish our most important tasks most efficiently and effectively.