MMM
Platinum Member
More like 80% of gross........ 15% to pto, 25% to db. They should do something like the Nebraska Test and not be allowed to stray.
Why is Gross HP used?
- Thread starter hbaird
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EFC
Veteran Member
One of the Tractor brands I used to sell had a dept dedicated to making sure they never quoted a spec measured from the same point or in the same way as any other manufacturer. It fact it was one of their big selling points to us dealers. They were very proud of it. It is not by accident that specs are confusing and misleading in some cases.
Buck
Buck
MessickFarmEqu
Super Member
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Neil, I know you are not bashing John Deere but simply stating your experiences as a dealer with what is confusing customers. Do you agree with my above conclusions about the marketing practices of the other companies as well?
)</font>
I come down hard on Deere because they are really the only other player in our market. People are most often confused about loader specs. I should not have to explain away why Deere's specs are not true to real world performance. It makes me look like I am talking down about their product when infact I'm just explaining deceptive marketing. If you are selling Green, you only have to say "this loader lifts ___ lbs without explaining the measurement". Most customers will take that at face value without looking into it. Again, the average customer IS NOT the average tbn reader or internet shopper who may look into these things. 80% of people probably have no idea that this is done.
like bob said, I'm not comming down on any brand as almost anyone any more is doing this with whatever measurements they fall short on.
)</font>
I come down hard on Deere because they are really the only other player in our market. People are most often confused about loader specs. I should not have to explain away why Deere's specs are not true to real world performance. It makes me look like I am talking down about their product when infact I'm just explaining deceptive marketing. If you are selling Green, you only have to say "this loader lifts ___ lbs without explaining the measurement". Most customers will take that at face value without looking into it. Again, the average customer IS NOT the average tbn reader or internet shopper who may look into these things. 80% of people probably have no idea that this is done.
like bob said, I'm not comming down on any brand as almost anyone any more is doing this with whatever measurements they fall short on.
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( ....not comming down on any brand as almost anyone any more is doing this with whatever.... )</font>
Hey Neil,
Can you translate that for me or are you talking as if you're writing for a JD brochure? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Hey Neil,
Can you translate that for me or are you talking as if you're writing for a JD brochure? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
MikePA
Super Moderator
I am still confused /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif I think some people are referring to how much hp is lost versus how much gets through.
Assume an engine produces 100 gross hp and has an HST transmission...
How much hp gets to the PTO?
How much hp gets to the drawbar?
Assume an engine produces 100 gross hp and has an HST transmission...
How much hp gets to the PTO?
How much hp gets to the drawbar?
rockyridgefarm
Elite Member
<font color="orange"> when infact I'm just explaining deceptive marketing </font>
I know we disagree, but is there any POSSIBLE explaination outside of Deere is intentionally misleading people? Dare I mention Nebraska testing?
Caveat Emptor.
I know we disagree, but is there any POSSIBLE explaination outside of Deere is intentionally misleading people? Dare I mention Nebraska testing?
Caveat Emptor.
Bob_Skurka
Super Member
- Joined
- Jul 1, 2003
- Messages
- 7,615
Brian, I won't put any words in Neils mouth, and I won't speak directly to JD, but I can tell you that several brands, in their MARKETING material state that the FEL capacity is "xxxx" pounds. Sometimes there is no disclaimer on what the measuring point is in the MARKETING material, sometimes there is.
The problem with that is that if you know you need to lift 1200# and you see a tractor that claims it can lift 1200#, then you are going to assume it will lift 1200#. Now if that FEL capacity is measured at the pivot point, then you will disappointed because your tractor will likely lift something like 800# if measured at the bucket center (which is very likely where your real world load will be centered!).
Altering back to the original question, but using the same logic, we have all seen people here on TBN ask about powering a large PTO driven implement with a small tractor. The engine/GROSS HP is often referred to by the newbie as the justifying factor for the implement size when in fact, the PTO HP is needed to determine the implement size. Worse than using engine/GROSS HP to determine implement size are the questions where people justify implement size only by considering the rear width of the tractor and not even considering other factors. These types of questions are posted moderately frequently.
Also, I tend to agree with Neil that the average TBN member is NOT the average tractor owner/buyer. I know of nobody in my circle of friends outside of TBN that owns a tractor and really knows anything about it. So I would suspect that 80+% of the buyers believe the marketing bull and think they got what they were told.
Mike, I think that with SMALL TRACTORS Deere is really just doing what many of the minor players are forcing them to do. The industry is changing to something that we can probably all agree is simply marketing ploy. The fact that JD publishes the real numbers in their on-line manuals says that they are not hiding the numbers. But I think JD's marketing department is using the numbers in the same way that some of the other guys are using them. On their larger tractors, those that qualify for the Nebraska testing, I strongly suspect they are publishing realistic numbers in their marketing material, but then it would be because they are selling to a different type of customer who is more demanding and careful in their purchasing requirements.
The question really is not so much why JD is doing this, but why are the other companies doing this? Because many of them make it very difficult to find the real "apples to apples" numbers!
The problem with that is that if you know you need to lift 1200# and you see a tractor that claims it can lift 1200#, then you are going to assume it will lift 1200#. Now if that FEL capacity is measured at the pivot point, then you will disappointed because your tractor will likely lift something like 800# if measured at the bucket center (which is very likely where your real world load will be centered!).
Altering back to the original question, but using the same logic, we have all seen people here on TBN ask about powering a large PTO driven implement with a small tractor. The engine/GROSS HP is often referred to by the newbie as the justifying factor for the implement size when in fact, the PTO HP is needed to determine the implement size. Worse than using engine/GROSS HP to determine implement size are the questions where people justify implement size only by considering the rear width of the tractor and not even considering other factors. These types of questions are posted moderately frequently.
Also, I tend to agree with Neil that the average TBN member is NOT the average tractor owner/buyer. I know of nobody in my circle of friends outside of TBN that owns a tractor and really knows anything about it. So I would suspect that 80+% of the buyers believe the marketing bull and think they got what they were told.
Mike, I think that with SMALL TRACTORS Deere is really just doing what many of the minor players are forcing them to do. The industry is changing to something that we can probably all agree is simply marketing ploy. The fact that JD publishes the real numbers in their on-line manuals says that they are not hiding the numbers. But I think JD's marketing department is using the numbers in the same way that some of the other guys are using them. On their larger tractors, those that qualify for the Nebraska testing, I strongly suspect they are publishing realistic numbers in their marketing material, but then it would be because they are selling to a different type of customer who is more demanding and careful in their purchasing requirements.
The question really is not so much why JD is doing this, but why are the other companies doing this? Because many of them make it very difficult to find the real "apples to apples" numbers!
MessickFarmEqu
Super Member
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( </font><font color="blueclass=small">( ....not comming down on any brand as almost anyone any more is doing this with whatever.... )</font>
Hey Neil,
Can you translate that for me or are you talking as if you're writing for a JD brochure? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
)</font>
That's almost embarrassing to read. lets just say I did not get an A in English class.
Hey Neil,
Can you translate that for me or are you talking as if you're writing for a JD brochure? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
)</font>
That's almost embarrassing to read. lets just say I did not get an A in English class.
MMM
Platinum Member
Close as I can get to 100hp, Mike. I was a bit stingy with my last post. A bit more get's to the work(on this model anyway)
From NE Tests
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Test Nos. 1255 and 1257 for an IH 986 diesel with 16-speed transmission and IH hydrostatic diesel 186. These tractors have identical engines, producing approximately 105 PTO hp. However, the standard transmission 986 produces 90 drawbar hp, while the hydrodrive produces 80 drawbar hp.
)</font>
From NE Tests
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Test Nos. 1255 and 1257 for an IH 986 diesel with 16-speed transmission and IH hydrostatic diesel 186. These tractors have identical engines, producing approximately 105 PTO hp. However, the standard transmission 986 produces 90 drawbar hp, while the hydrodrive produces 80 drawbar hp.
)</font>
BillyP
Veteran Member
<font color="blue"> The question really is not so much why JD is doing this, but why are the other companies doing this? Because many of them make it very difficult to find the real "apples to apples" numbers!
</font>
Bob, I'm curious to know. Has Kubota, NH, JD and all the others always advertised their loader specs the same as they do now?
Thanks
</font>
Bob, I'm curious to know. Has Kubota, NH, JD and all the others always advertised their loader specs the same as they do now?
Thanks