Why is Gross HP used?

[Bob_Skurka]

Billy, I can't speak for "always" because I didn't grow up on a farm. But from my observations, Kubota and Case/New Holland have in the past listed their specs in marketing materails the way they currently list them.

My observation of JD is less clear. Some of the older marketing materials I've seen seem to indicate that they have changed and adopted some of the measuring points that the minor brands seem to use. But even that seems unclear to me. Their numbers simply confuse me. That is not really a criticism. Please realize that JD is honest enough to put their operators manuals on the net so the detailed measurements are all there!



What I can be openly critical of are most of the minor brand who give only one measurement, perhaps don't tell you where it is even measured from, and do not post detailed specs anywhere on the internet. They effectively make it impossible to do valid apples to apples comparisons.



To me the MOST honest companies are Kubota & Case/New Holland. John Deere should be considered basically honest because they have the manuals on line. Massey Ferguson seems to also fall into the basically honest category simply because they provide some numbers on-line that even Kubota or CNH don't provide on-line.

The other factor to look at is the Nebraska tests. I am openly critical of Kubota for not participating, but at least they use an independant test lab and at least they post honest numbers. John Deere actively promotes the Nebraska tests, Case New Holland and Massey Ferguson also participate in Nebraska testing. Many brands simply don't and those same brands also don't seem to post "honest" numbers and I can only ask one question to them . . . "What do you have to hide?"

 

[BillyP]

Thanks for your time, Bob. I was just curious who started or said this is the way it should be. There should be some kind of standardization? Kind of like what distance the top hitch is from the bottom hitch, on an implement.

 

[Larstan]

Now you get to the root of the problem, Regulating, where, when and how much? I agree that it is dishonest to imply that a tractor produces 100 HP when it is really only producing 75 usable. The catch here is that does this fall into something that should have some oversight or is that what good ole American free speech and TBN are for? I raced and built motorcycles for a number of years and it was exactly the same hype. In my experience you lose somewhere between 20 to 30% between the crankshaft and the rear wheel. It is absolutely impossible to have a standard formula to give you that number with all the variables in between those 2 points. If you stick the motor on an engine dyno you get crankshaft HP, if you then put that in a vehicle and put it on a rear wheel dyno you get actual usable HP. But the bottom line is the information is almost always out there somewhere if you are willing to take the time to look ie. TBN, manufacturer site, news groups. So is, "truth in advertising" new? Naw, been going on since the snake oil salesman. There is a fine line between absolute truth and an outright lie. 'Caveat Emptor'
Let the buyer beware.

I think the only way to stop this kind of BS is to do just exactly what we are doing right now. We start talking about it, get it out in the open and make the unsavvy tractor buyer savvy. Pretty soon Red,Green,Blue,Yellow will start to feel the pinch and will have to A. fix the marketing or B. make the equipment perform to the specs. Education, the dishonest people hate it because they are counting on ignorance to move product.

This is the kind of thing the internet has spawned that will have far reaching impact on how business is done. Just the ability for this amount of experience and knowledge (everyone across the country participating in TBN) to get together on a daily and even hourly basis is kind of mind boggling. Just the kind of thing dishonest people and companies hate. You can compare products in a meaningful way if you know how they are manipulating the data, read the fine print and call them on it. I bet the dealers notice first when they can't answer the hard question. Then they will be calling the Manufacturer. Bottom line is, it is about Money (go figure) and if they start losing it they will either fix it, or go away /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif

 

[N80]

Back to gross HP. What is it? Or, maybe, what is it intended to be?

The brochure for the Kubota L series lists engine gross power and engine net power. Anyone know the difference? Where it is measured?

They also list PTO horsepower. That seems easier to understand. And you'd expect that it would be harder to fudge on. But that's where the marketing geniouses step in I guess.

I think that in the compact 'luxury' tractor market, the more important issue is that for most newbie tractor buyers like me, don't have any real idea what the practical difference is between 20, 30 or 40 hp when it comes to what you can actually do with it. I had no real idea when I got my Kubota L4400. So I bought the most hp I could afford. It worked out, but not because I was especially informed or that Kubota was especially helpful in its data.

 

[Larstan]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Back to gross HP. What is it? Or, maybe, what is it intended to be?
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You have to have a way to define the amount of work a tractor or any vehicle for that matter will do. HP is the measure they use and gross HP is the biggest number, so thats what the marketers use. Same reason some of the brands use lift numbers at the lift arms instead of 24" farther back, the number is larger and looks better. A literal definition would be the HP an engine produces on an engine dyno at the output shaft (crankshaft in this case).