Why not sugar water in tires instead of beet juice?

Raul-02 · Jun 29, 2022

KennJ said:
metals like titanium.

high acids are usually handled by 316 but there are tougher grades yet still. I've built process equipment for the laboratory using Hastelloy and nickel 200 grade stainless They aren't quite inconell but they resist most everything but for hydrofluoric.

KennJ · Jun 29, 2022

M59 said:
KennJ,

You are absolutely correct on "many things eat stainless". Stainless is corrosion resistant it is NOT corrosion proof because stainless steels ( all grades ) quickly form an oxide coating that prevents further oxidation/ corrosion. Any fluid carry solids which includes liquids saturated to point they can no "dissolve" any more of the material ( ie sugar ) then the solution becomes abrasive and removes the oxide coating coating as quickly as it forms. Quick pinholes. Most acids , even mild ones like citric acid, will have the same effect on the oxide coating and then pipe/ tubing failure.

That's a great explanation, thanks!

M59 · Jun 29, 2022

rScotty said:
All good reasons & I doubt there are many people who use calcium chloride or methanol or antifreeze in their tires anymore. Way to corrosive and/or poisonous. One leak in a tire filled with any of the above will make a person into a believer for life.

I prefer to stay with just air in the tires. Nicer ride, and doesn't overstress the loader & front end. Adding weight to the tires will lower the center of gravity - but not by much. Whether loading the tires is an advantage or not on slopes is debateable. Loaded tires may offer CG stability, but are less flexible and tend to slide sideways.

Best thing on slopes is stay away.

When the M59 first came out, one of the options on the "build it" page was OEM cast iron wheel weights. There are probably still some of those around.
rScotty

rScotty,

I am going to nicely disagree with your statement on loaded tires does not lower the center of gravity by much and the debate-able advantage of loaded tires on slopes.

My M59 with backhoe and Paladin grapple scales ( run across multiple DOT and gravel pit scales ) at 11,200-11,500 pounds with only rear tires loaded with beet juice per Kubota recommendations. Each rear tire has 589ish pounds of beet juice in it. Tires have an air cushion at top of each tire so that when the tire valve is at the top of the rim then the beet juice level is 3-4 inches below the valve so ride is not noticeably affected due to air cushion. The CG of each loaded tire is below the axle center and the additional 1,178 pounds in rear wheels is 11% of the total machine weight. Regardless of where the CG of a new M59 TLB, unless it is lower than the centerline of the rear axles, the additional 11% of weight below the axle centerline manifests itself as a significant improvement in lowering the CG. The additional weight has many advantages. Filling the loader, especially rail road ballast, is easier because tire spin nearly nonexistent. Travel across level ground and up hills when the grapple of loader bucket is fully loaded is much safer with the additional loaded rear tire counterweight. Even with loaded rear tires the back end will get bouncy ( light ) at low speed when the grapple is loaded with 4,000 lbs plus of stone. I always back down a hill when grapple or bucket is fully loaded to keep CG below the load. I limit crossing slopes with “heavy” loads as a matter of safety so no issues with sliding.

Swinging a heaped 24 inch bucket from far left to far right, at slow speed, loaded with mud/ silt is far less sphincter puckering with loaded tires. Watching the left outrigger pad come off the ground is always fun.

A few pics of loads, grades, and work.

Billrog · Jun 29, 2022

I wouldn't consider running my tractor without LOADED back tires. 1st tractor 20+ yrs. with sodium chloride never a problem . Bought a new tractor nothing in tires used it for for 1 wk. to dangerous. Found where I could get the tires loaded with beat juice and had them filled . Safer on hill sides , helps with a full loader bucket but ballast as well is better. Does not effect the ride unless you over air them. My acreage is mt. side steep skid trails and I often travel on slopes putting an average of 600 hrs. a yr. on the tractor logging and brush hogging.

LouNY · Jun 29, 2022

Lots of hours every year on numerous tractors, very few still have filled tires ( I think 3 out 14) most have iron bolted on.
I much prefer iron to liquid.

5030 · Jun 29, 2022

So do I. Much better when dismounting a rim too.

rScotty · Jun 29, 2022

M59 said:
rScotty,

I am going to nicely disagree with your statement on loaded tires does not lower the center of gravity by much and the debate-able advantage of loaded tires on slopes.

My M59 with backhoe and Paladin grapple scales ( run across multiple DOT and gravel pit scales ) at 11,200-11,500 pounds with only rear tires loaded with beet juice per Kubota recommendations. Each rear tire has 589ish pounds of beet juice in it. Tires have an air cushion at top of each tire so that when the tire valve is at the top of the rim then the beet juice level is 3-4 inches below the valve so ride is not noticeably affected due to air cushion. The CG of each loaded tire is below the axle center and the additional 1,178 pounds in rear wheels is 11% of the total machine weight. Regardless of where the CG of a new M59 TLB, unless it is lower than the centerline of the rear axles, the additional 11% of weight below the axle centerline manifests itself as a significant improvement in lowering the CG. The additional weight has many advantages. Filling the loader, especially rail road ballast, is easier because tire spin nearly nonexistent. Travel across level ground and up hills when the grapple of loader bucket is fully loaded is much safer with the additional loaded rear tire counterweight. Even with loaded rear tires the back end will get bouncy ( light ) at low speed when the grapple is loaded with 4,000 lbs plus of stone. I always back down a hill when grapple or bucket is fully loaded to keep CG below the load. I limit crossing slopes with “heavy” loads as a matter of safety so no issues with sliding.

Swinging a heaped 24 inch bucket from far left to far right, at slow speed, loaded with mud/ silt is far less sphincter puckering with loaded tires. Watching the left outrigger pad come off the ground is always fun.

A few pics of loads, grades, and work.

I don't disagree with the advantages of weight. I enjoy the posts, but disagree with descriptions like like "hugely, or "significant improvement", and "much" safer ".... and so on. It needs some arithmetic. Improvement? Sure, there's some. Significant? Well, maybe.

I intuitively doubt that moving 11% of the weight slightly below the axle is going to make a lot of difference in the position of the CG. I'll grant that moving half the weight below the axle might.
But I could be wrong. Way wrong. I'd be curious to know just how far the CG is moved.
Somebody please do the arithmetic.

BTW, that air cushion argument needs rethinking. Volume counts in air cushioning. I'd start by figuring out what percentage of air is reduced. Suppose for sake of argument that the energy from hitting a bump is equal in either case. But with the tires loaded, what percentage of the volume is no longer available to compress to disipate that bump energy?

rScotty

rScotty · Jun 29, 2022

LouNY said:
Lots of hours every year on numerous tractors, very few still have filled tires ( I think 3 out 14) most have iron bolted on.
I much prefer iron to liquid.

So do I. It only takes one leak to get a person thinking. Puncture it twice, and there goes the economic advantage as well.

M59 · Jun 29, 2022

rScotty said:
I don't disagree with the advantages of weight. I enjoy the posts, but disagree with descriptions like like "hugely, or "significant improvement", and "much" safer ".... and so on. It needs some arithmetic. Improvement? Sure, there's some. Significant? Well, maybe.

I intuitively doubt that moving 11% of the weight slightly below the axle is going to make a lot of difference in the position of the CG. I'll grant that moving half the weight below the axle might.
But I could be wrong. Way wroing. I'd be curious to know how far the CG is moved.
Somebody please do the arithmetic.

BTW, that air cushion argument needs rethinking. Volume counts in air cushioning. I'd start by figuring out what percentage of air is reduced. Suppose for sake of argument that the energy from hitting a bump is equal in either case. But with the tires loaded, what percentage of the volume is no longer available to compress to disipate that bump energy?

rScotty

rScotty,

I wasn't sure whether to reply or not but here goes.

I too would like to know where the roll centers are on the M59 and have asked Kubota for that information with no response. Therefore, I am working from the position of every pound that I can place below the plane that runs thru the axels is a pound or percentage of total weight that is below the likely roll centers. I conclude the roll centers are probably above the plane that runs thru the axels based upon the significant bodies of weight ( backhoe, engine, front end loader frame ) are mostly above the plane of the axels. Since you have a M59, you know what kind of weights are involved. I consider moving 5% of weight below the axles to be a significant improvement in reducing the likelihood of roll over.

I have some idea of where the for-aft roll center is since I experienced a light rear end when grapple is maximally loaded. That is why loading the rear tires was a significant improvement in for-aft stability.

M59 travel speed is less than 5 mph when loaded and frequently 2-3 mph when really loaded so impacts are very low speed and there is little lost displacement. Kind of like gently squeezing a balloon. The tire carcass, when rolling slowly over a rock, bulges slightly at the point of contact and there appears to be very little internal pressure increase. However, I will afix a pressure guage to the tire stem and try a low roll over several different size rocks next time I am running the machine. Will be interested in learning the outcome.

jyoutz · Jun 30, 2022

M59 said:
etpm,

My used 2008 M59 came with beet juice loaded tires, which dealer didn't tell me about, and I only learned when I went to put air into a rear tire and purple juice ran out. I have never had any issues with tires, rims, or valves and would re-use the beet juice again if I have to replace the tires due to age or damage. Loaded tires are a huge improvement when carrying a full loader bucket ( pic below ) or when traveling over incline with full loader. Ballasted tires significantly lower the center of gravity of working machine. I have attached several data sheets for tire loading and tire volumes. I won't use the following :Salt because it enables galvanic corrosion and results in short rim life along as well as poisons ground when leaked. Methanol is a contact poison and doesn't really add weight since its sole purpose is to prevent water from freezing. Antifreeze ( ethylene glycol ) is sweet tasting and lethal to pets and local animals when it leaks onto ground.
Beet juice is thick, like syrup, so it is heavy per unit volume and must be put in with a gear pump. Most installers won't add beat juice when temps are cold because it gets thicker and hard to pump.

The left two pics are rock in a 84 inch wide bucket. Even with loaded rear tires ( 589 lbs beet juice per tire ) and a backhoe, the rear end got pretty light and would bounce. Not a pleasant sensation.

Hope this helps.