Why they don't wave

[Gary_in_Indiana]

Re: Why they don\'t wave

Doc,

I don't know where to begin. I didn't "characterize" Harley riders. I posted something that a Harley owner/rider posted on another board and, quite frankly, I don't think it disparages Harley riders any more than it does Goldwing riders. You're the one here who's come up with racial/ethnic remarks about "rice grinders," "Jap junk" and "the Minute Rice guy" on here. I've said nothing but nice things about the Harley product to the point of saying I'd buy one if I could afford a second bike. There are a lot of people who have one of each.

As to the US made components in each, as I recall it was just under 84% for HD and just under 87% for Goldwings. I've even had Harley folks comment on that to me. Frankly, I think any manufacturer who can put together something as complicated as a bike with five out of six parts made domestically is doing great. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Doc, why don't you tell me about your 100%-American-made-from-American-components VCR or color television or transistor radio. It's a world economy in which we live, Doc. I'm quite happy that Goldwings are made here. If they were made in Japan I'd still buy one rather than not have one, just like you likely did with your color TV. You probably would have preferred an American TV, but you didn't want to be without one so you bought what was out there.

How you can say that a company that builds cars, bikes, ATV's and whatever else here employing thousands of US citizens at well paying manufacturing jobs isn't supporting the US economy is beyond me.

You say you have "no ill will toward Gold Wing...Riders" yet in the midst of even that you have to attempt disparage their choice as "Lead Wing." The fact of the matter is they are the Lead Wing. They lead in the touring bike category and all other follow. If you have any doubts, ride them. I think you'll find they're here for more reasons than being "cheaper that the good (but not as good) old (technology, engineering and manufacturing tecnique) USA models."

If you care to compare the base Goldwing to the base Ultra Classic Electra Glide I think you'll be surprised at how close they are in price. A base GL1800A is $18,999 in black. A base Ultra Classic Electra Glide FHLTCUI is $19,595 in black. I find it hard to believe that a 3% price difference explains why the Goldwings are here. A base Honda Rune cruiser is is $24,499 in black. The base price on a Heritage Softail Classic FLSTCI is $16,995 in black yet for over $7,500 MORE there is a waiting list for the Rune. Imagine that!

You never did tell me if you own a Harley or not. Do you? If you do, which one do you have? Perhaps, if you do (or want to go out and support the economy and buy one), we can go for a ride sometime. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[Kelvin]

Re: Why they don\'t wave

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( As far as your charcterizations of Harley Riders, the days of totooed low life thugs that cant keep a job are long gone. )</font>

I really have no dog in this fight as I quit riding motorcycles back in the 1970s.

However, your statement reminded me of a comment made by a guy from the maintenance area where I work. One of our younger college educated workers bought a new Harley and happened to ask this older guy why he no longer had his Harley. His response was that all of the "Geeks" were starting to ride Harleys and he didn't want to be associated with them.

Kelvin

 

[RobertN]

Re: Why they don\'t wave

I ride a Harley. 1984 FXRS, the first Evo motor. It was so early in production that I have a chain final drive instead of a belt.

I looked into this, even before big debates. My USA Harley, which I really really really really like, has so much "foriegn" stuff on it, it would be in pieces if you took it all off.

I could take the Showa forks and rear shocks off. That pretty much makes it stationary. Next, lets take the Keihin carb off. The motor don't run. Take the Hitachi Starter off; it wouldn't start even if the carb was still on it. Take almost all of the electrical system off, since it is imported. The rear wheel bearings were Timken's, with a Brazillian mark on them.

There's more that could come off(a lot has, with US replacements...)

So, I bought and maintain an American made bike. Really, I wouldn';t have anything else. Gary has that Goldwing, and they are NICE bikes, just not my particular taste. Most of the "Lead Wings" are made here. Most anything over 700cc is made here. My buddies Kawasaki Vulcan is every bit as US made as my FXRS. It's a nice bike too. It is admittedly a Harley knockoff, but it is still a nice bike.

Take a look at Custom Chrome stuff some time. They have TONS of stuff for HArleys. Most all of it is of foriegn manufacture.

The shame is, S&S could make carbs for Harley. There are American manufacturers who could make electrical systems. There are aftermarket fork and shock manufacturers. They could do it.

I wish I could agree with you. I wish I could buy more American stuff. Heck, even my Turbo Cummins Dodge was assembled in Mexico of mostly US made parts. It kills me to go to Wal Mart or Kmart or Kragens/Checker, and see all the stuff with "Made Elsewhere" tags on them. Having a Harley is great, and I do do it a bit for an American made product. But, I realize how little is actually made here when I line up at the parts counter.

Mass imports will get the best of us eventually. I try to buy US made. It is mighty hard these days. And, when I do, I try not to let the fact it says US made be the biggest influence on the purchase, beacuase even though it does something for some major stock holder in the company, it's affects are less felt further down the corporate staircase.

When Gary and I finally do meet, we'll go for a putt and have a great time. Our faces will be in the wind which is the most important thing. Maybe Thomas will join us on that custom ground pounder he built /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

 

[Taylortractornut]

Re: Why they don\'t wave

My older brother has had alot of bikes and now owned about 15 Harelys bought at good rebuild deals. He likes most bikes and is fairly friendly. He says he doesnt wave alot because of a few accidents hes seen in his life and mostly those being a new accident investigator. He gets to see all the bad that comes from folks that lapse on the concentration.
I have a friend that built a huge wind mill that has an 8 foot rotor and the blade tips have marker lights. Lots of new or inexperience riders have missed the curve infront of his house. He usually only activates the lights on week nights when not alot of bikes are out.
My uncle owns both a Harley and a Valkery and has a friend whose wife has a Goldwing and he rides an Electraglide. THe gold wing broke down on a poker run an all the folks were looking at him so he found a plywood scrap and wrote on it (Its the Honda this time).

 

[Docsknotinn]

Re: Why they don\'t wave

Gary, Sure you charterized Harley Riders. It was pretty funny too. I make charcterizations well. Its intended to be in good fun. Not a rant directed at any one. The Tv analagy does not work for me as obviously that leaves no choices. In the World of bikes I still have a kinda sorta choice /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif Just like my JD with the rice burning motor in it. In regard to supporting economys it is my first choice to buy from US based corporations Such as JD and Harley Davidson Ford GMC etc. Admittidly even corporate base is getting tough to ferret out as so many corporations now own micro shares of each other. The controlling corp base is what concerns me. Their are far more jobs involved in manufactureing and buisiness than just the few in the actual plant. Turn your memory clock back to the early 80's and recall what the imports did to the American bike sales and economy. Nearly a total collapse as they flooded the market with cheap bikes to take over the market share of HD. How many jobs did those cheap bikes cost, or would your position be that even those boosted our economy as they were sold in the us. lol. HD is the ONLY American company I know of that has ever survived such an assault and successfully lost 85% of their market share. I say sucessfully as they are still in buisiness. I'm only 42 so in another 23 or so years when I fit the profile for a Gold wing maybe I'll take you up on the offer to test ride one. Untill then I will just admire them from a distance or more so the loyalty and clubs they seem to spawn. I cant trade American thunder for Rice pudding just yet /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif Dave

 

[Old_Hickory]

Re: Why they don\'t wave

No politics, religion, or joke lists.

Gary,be careful or the gestapo will get you.

 

[Gary_in_Indiana]

Re: Why they don\'t wave

<font color="blue"> "The gold wing broke down on a poker run an all the folks were looking at him so he found a plywood scrap and wrote on it (Its the Honda this time)" </font>

Now THAT is funny. You don't happen to have a picture of that you could email to me, do you?

 

[Gary_in_Indiana]

Re: Why they don\'t wave

<font color="blue"> "Turn your memory clock back to the early 80's and recall what the imports did to the American bike sales and economy. Nearly a total collapse as they flooded the market with cheap bikes to take over the market share of HD." </font>

Actually, it was the 70's, not the 80's. And if you "turn your memory clock back" to that time in the history of Harley Davidson, you might recall that was the time that HD was acquired by AMF, the bowling ball and snow ski company. /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

It was 1969 when the Japanese first entered the (then) large bike market with offerings of 700cc's and up. That was also the year of the AMF acquisition. Harley Davidson was producing 14,000 bikes per year. By the end of the seventies, with the new assembly plant in York, PA opening in 1974, production was over 50,000 annually.

In 1981, a management group of 13 did a leveraged buyout (remember, this was the eighties) and AMF was out of the picture. Unfortunately for HD, so was the AMF money that HD so desperately needed, as they soon found out.

As I recall from a PBS special with Tom Peters, Harley Davidson was one of the first US companies to integrate just-in-time inventories and employee involvement with operations. They needed to make some changes and were on the right track to do so. Unfortunately, changes cost money and that was sorely lacking after the LBO. To compound the problem, the new plant had turned out some less-than-quality products since it opened and the image of the product had been severely damaged. That combined with the quality Japanese imports had taken huge market share from Harley. To be fair, though, there really hadn't been much competition at all before this so HD never had to worry about it before.

By 1982 the Harley Davidson ship was taking on water with no ballast around. It wasn't a new story. Strong competition against a lethargic leader will always take market share. Harley Davidson simply didn't have the money or the time to do what they needed to do even though they had a good plan in place. What they did then was very innovative and, regardless of whether it was right or wrong, it worked. Harley Davidson wrapped itself in the American flag and went to the government for help.

In 1982, President Ronald Reagan initiated import tariffs on (then) large Japanese bikes (large by then having grown to 850cc's). I'm sure there were a lot of other business owners who wished they had gotten the same help from their government that HD had, but they didn't. Nonetheless, a five year import tax was imposed and that gave HD the time they needed to recover. Of course, it could certainly be argued that the loser was the US consumer who was forced to pay higher than fair market prices for any large bike, be it domestic or foreign here.

I just thought you might like to know the history of how all of this really happened. Just because I ride a Goldwing doesn't mean I'm totally unfamiliar with Harley Davidson. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

 

[Docsknotinn]

Re: Why they don\'t wave

I would have to debate that higher price statement. I was still seeing new import bikes in the crate (1982's) being sold as late as '86 for half the price with twice the warranty. Thats a tough deal to beat if youre looking for value. As far as how things really happened I think we just both said the same thing. The tarrifs on imports did little good when the imports dropped their prices which by the way was in'83, employee buy back was in '81 and AMF was not Japaneese but instead was The AMERICAN Machine & Foundry co. Dave

 

[TresCrows]

Re: Why they don\'t wave

I went to the Toys for Kids ride because my boss at work insisted the department show in force. They all have Honda Shadows save for one feller on a 30,000 dollar Harley and me on my Suzuki. It was interesting sitting amongst the "bikers" in the parking lot for an hour or so as a continual stream of bikes came in. There were about 2,000 bikes total. I was surrounded by a sea of "skanks" and fat men in black. Hey that would be a good movie----"Fat Men In Black". They were all there for a good time and all friendly. One of my buddies lady friend got patted on the rear several times on her way to the bathroom. The skinny "skank" next to me was drinking whisky hid away in her "daddys" leather saddle case. She wanted to know why I rode a rice rocket. I just gave her a strange look as if I were looking at an alien and asked her why every orifice on her body was pierced /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif. At that point the "skank" just let out a loud ---whooooooooooop---and wanted to know if her gf, another "skank" could ride on my bike with me (my wife did not come with me). The skank without a ride was actually kinda cute somewhere under the tatoos and piercings but I kindly passed her on to my new friend next to me who I was told was a "skank magnet". I hope they live happy ever after /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif.
Hey, I always wave, the Peace Sign wave, as I was taught. If they don't wave back it is their problem /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif.
Bikes, there are crusier people, touring people and sport bike people. If Harley made a sport bike I would look at them--they do not. I am no more interested in that type of cruiser bike than I was in the "skank". I am not a "Biker", I am a motorcyclist. My bike does not need to be super fast but I like light, slim, flickable bikes with big brakes. Yeah, I enjoy the occasional wheelie and burnout mostly done in my garage. I will never own a Harley. Check out Ducati's website. Along the banner at the top they are introducing their new SportClassic series. Those are the type of bikes I love. I have had several Dukes--that looked like those. My current little Suzuki is just a fun little ride. If you go to the website, see the yellow one in the middle of the banner /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif---I will probably buy that one when it is available--if ever. Now--do you really think someone who wants something like that would ever want a Harley or vice versa?--No, --and, with only one seat, I won't have Harely skanks trying to hitch a ride with me /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif. J