Which brings us around full circle to the original question.
Why was steel of decades ago so much better quality than today?
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tallyho8
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My father junked an old 1926 Franklin in 1932 and put all the nuts and bolts in a bucket. Over the years the bucket has filled with water several times and been left outdoors a lot.
I have used many of these nuts and bolts over the years without even having to wire brush them off and found them to be exceedingly strong and almost rust proof. They have very tight tolerances yet you can still tighten any nut on a bolt by hand. If I left a new bolt out in the weather for a year with a nut on it, you would need two wrenches to get the nut off.
I also have about 20 pounds of galvanized nuts, bolts and washers from an old 1930s Sears windmill that have been left on the garage floor ever since and they still practically look like new.
I have used many of these nuts and bolts over the years without even having to wire brush them off and found them to be exceedingly strong and almost rust proof. They have very tight tolerances yet you can still tighten any nut on a bolt by hand. If I left a new bolt out in the weather for a year with a nut on it, you would need two wrenches to get the nut off.
I also have about 20 pounds of galvanized nuts, bolts and washers from an old 1930s Sears windmill that have been left on the garage floor ever since and they still practically look like new.
jeff9366
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Furnace steel is available in hundreds of grades.
Most of the alloy formulas produced years ago remain available if a steel customer wants to order in a reasonable quantity for production. (i.e.: Caterpillar for bolts.)
Most customers, railroads perhaps being the exception, do not want to pay for high grade/expensive steel in quantities sufficient to make it worthwhile to inventory in this day of "just in time."
Vehicle manufactures are under great pressure for better fuel mileage. Weight reduction is what they want. If the steel is not thin enough the part will morph to aluminum.
Most of the alloy formulas produced years ago remain available if a steel customer wants to order in a reasonable quantity for production. (i.e.: Caterpillar for bolts.)
Most customers, railroads perhaps being the exception, do not want to pay for high grade/expensive steel in quantities sufficient to make it worthwhile to inventory in this day of "just in time."
Vehicle manufactures are under great pressure for better fuel mileage. Weight reduction is what they want. If the steel is not thin enough the part will morph to aluminum.
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ultrarunner
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Vanadium Steel
Henry Ford searched the world for the best materials he could find at the cheapest cost.
During a car race in Florida , he examined the wreckage of a French car and noticed that many of its parts were made of a metal that was lighter but stronger than what was being used in American cars. No one in the U.S. knew how to make this French steel—a vanadium alloy. As part of the preproduction process for the Model T, Ford imported an expert who helped him build a steel mill. As a result, the only cars in the world to utilize vanadium steel in the next five years would be French luxury cars and the Model T.
Vanadium is very corrosion resistant...
Also...
In 1905 Henry was at a race meeting, watching Malcomson's beloved Model K, the company's top-of-the-range six-cylinder heavyweight, when there was a smashup involving a French racer. Henry had been noticing for some time how certain components of European cars seemed to be much lighter and stronger than their American equivalents, and now, examining the wreckage of the French car, he picked up a little valve strip stem which was exceptionally light and tough.
"That is the kind of material we ought to have in our cars," he said, and he initiated an inquiry into precisely what sort of steel the valve strip stem was made of. It turned out to be an alloy of vanadium, which no American foundry then knew how to incorporate into steel. Making vanadium alloy required a furnace heat of 3,000 degrees Fahrenheit, and ordinary furnaces could not get above 2,700.
Henry found a small steel company in Canton, Ohio, to experiment with the process:
I offered to guarantee them against loss if they would run a heat for us. They agreed. The first heat was a failure. Very little vanadium remained in the steel. I had them try again, and the second time the steel came through. Until then we had been forced to be satisfied with steel running between 60,00 and 70,000 pounds tensile strength. With vanadium the strength went up to 170,000 pounds.
In March 1907, Ford took delivery of what the company claimed to be the first shipment of vanadium steel made in America. Produced in Canton exclusively for Ford cars, it had ten times the tensile strength of metal that the Carnegie Steel Company was currently turning out for armour-plate experiments.
"Vanadium steel resists shock," reported the Detroit Journal,"---either on blow or a series of lighter ones, or minute vibrations. . . to a greater extent than any other metal."
Henry Ford searched the world for the best materials he could find at the cheapest cost.
During a car race in Florida , he examined the wreckage of a French car and noticed that many of its parts were made of a metal that was lighter but stronger than what was being used in American cars. No one in the U.S. knew how to make this French steel—a vanadium alloy. As part of the preproduction process for the Model T, Ford imported an expert who helped him build a steel mill. As a result, the only cars in the world to utilize vanadium steel in the next five years would be French luxury cars and the Model T.
Vanadium is very corrosion resistant...
Also...
In 1905 Henry was at a race meeting, watching Malcomson's beloved Model K, the company's top-of-the-range six-cylinder heavyweight, when there was a smashup involving a French racer. Henry had been noticing for some time how certain components of European cars seemed to be much lighter and stronger than their American equivalents, and now, examining the wreckage of the French car, he picked up a little valve strip stem which was exceptionally light and tough.
"That is the kind of material we ought to have in our cars," he said, and he initiated an inquiry into precisely what sort of steel the valve strip stem was made of. It turned out to be an alloy of vanadium, which no American foundry then knew how to incorporate into steel. Making vanadium alloy required a furnace heat of 3,000 degrees Fahrenheit, and ordinary furnaces could not get above 2,700.
Henry found a small steel company in Canton, Ohio, to experiment with the process:
I offered to guarantee them against loss if they would run a heat for us. They agreed. The first heat was a failure. Very little vanadium remained in the steel. I had them try again, and the second time the steel came through. Until then we had been forced to be satisfied with steel running between 60,00 and 70,000 pounds tensile strength. With vanadium the strength went up to 170,000 pounds.
In March 1907, Ford took delivery of what the company claimed to be the first shipment of vanadium steel made in America. Produced in Canton exclusively for Ford cars, it had ten times the tensile strength of metal that the Carnegie Steel Company was currently turning out for armour-plate experiments.
"Vanadium steel resists shock," reported the Detroit Journal,"---either on blow or a series of lighter ones, or minute vibrations. . . to a greater extent than any other metal."
^ This was figured out 1600 years ago.
Around here, vehicle bodies look like swiss cheese at 10 years old. Yep, that's progress..... and the ascendancy of Bean Counters.
The Calcium Chloride now in use around here in Winter is destroying E-V-E-R-Y-T-H-I-N-G very effectively. Govt loves the increased revenue, and vehicle OEMs will stop sweating once they figure out how to make things hold together 1 week past warranty.
To OPs question, I agree that some of the older alloys were better.... now we suffer with the cost reduced versions.
Rgds, D.
Industrial Toys
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I believe this notion about recyled steel having the rust already in there is a wives tale of sorts.
The steel industry can make any quality of steel you order, and pay for. Years ago, things were just made to last. Now, generally speaking, unless you are the Military or NASA , you get quality that is as cheap as the manufacturer can get away with.
Many no-name brand equipment manufacturers will buy whatever steel they can get a good deal on. Grades and quality isn't even a thought as long as they can weld it and paint it!
The steel industry can make any quality of steel you order, and pay for. Years ago, things were just made to last. Now, generally speaking, unless you are the Military or NASA , you get quality that is as cheap as the manufacturer can get away with.
Many no-name brand equipment manufacturers will buy whatever steel they can get a good deal on. Grades and quality isn't even a thought as long as they can weld it and paint it!
Egon
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Default Re: Why was steel of decades ago so much better quality than today?
I believe this notion about recyled steel having the rust already in there is a wives tale of sorts.
:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
I believe this notion about recyled steel having the rust already in there is a wives tale of sorts.
:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
Gary Fowler
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Well they do just dump all the recycled stuff in a big furnace to melt it down, rust and all but all the dirt and impurities (slag) is drawn off and certain alloys might be added if needed to make the steel conform the ASME requirements for the steel being produced. You really cant blame the steel industry for this. Much of what has changed is because of knowledge that has come from testing the steel batches. If .01% of an element does an adequate job and adding 5% doesn't do much more for it, then why waste the alloying element. Engineering and testing has eliminated a lot of weight from all products whether that is a good thing or bad depends on ones prospective. Weight to an extent for a tractor is good but not too much weight.
Industrial Toys
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In these days of the recycling mentality, most people never realize how recylable and wonderful a product steel is and has been (all along) in that regard.
I can't posibly imagine cutting open a piece of steel and seeing rust inside. Considering that oxidation requires oxygen, I would guess it's not even possible as in this notion of something virtually rusting from the inside out.
I can't posibly imagine cutting open a piece of steel and seeing rust inside. Considering that oxidation requires oxygen, I would guess it's not even possible as in this notion of something virtually rusting from the inside out.
Ouch! I guess that I've been dope-slapped.
I can only plead that I'm a victim of an urban legend.
I have an old Dearborn harrow, and I can say that they do rust. Lacking torches , I use an angle grinder any time I need to remove a bolt; and this winter I will be replacing most parts except the frame. (Or buying a new County Line, whichever is cheaper.)