Wildfire Protection

   / Wildfire Protection
  • Thread Starter
#21  
Thanks for the comments about wind-driven fires jumping what I thought was truly "defensible" space around a dwelling. So you're saying the kind of fire mitigation techniques illustrated in this picture won't work?

View attachment 271476

Saying they might not work. In this case, the property owner did everything right and still has a home to come back to. The trees to the left of the house are still too close for comfort. The swimming pool is great, though from the absence of tire tracks it looks like the fire department didn't need to get a pumper to it.

Which brings up another point. If you establish a fire fighting reservior like a large cistern or a pool, tell the local fire department so they can put it on their map. Water doesn't do any good if nobody knows it's there.
 
   / Wildfire Protection #22  
It really depends on the conditions. As others have noted, a big wind driven fire can be devastating no matter what.

The more you prep your property though, the higher chance it has of surviving. Remember to, as firefighters, we have to do triage on houses and neighborhoods. Properties like you posted, generally have a good chance of survival. Access is good. It is relatively safe for fire crews to access, and defend.

Some properties are just the opposite. Access is poor, brush and or grass is too close to the house; it is in a draw etc. There are cases where it is just too dangerous to place firefighters there, endangering their lives.

Earlier in this thread, I posted links to Cal Fire; there is some very good information there. Other states have similar agencies, with similar information.

Thanks for the comments about wind-driven fires jumping what I thought was truly "defensible" space around a dwelling. So you're saying the kind of fire mitigation techniques illustrated in this picture won't work?

View attachment 271476
 
   / Wildfire Protection #23  
I wonder if elevation above its surroundings was the deciding factor in the amazing survival of this Utah home while all around it the wildfire decimated everything -- or maybe it was the lack of wind. It certainly doesn't look like the owners established any kind of defensible space:

article-2168545-13EA8972000005DC-591_634x352.jpg

Quail Fire: The Utah home left untouched by flames after wildfire rages through | Mail Online
 
   / Wildfire Protection #24  
I wonder if elevation above its surroundings was the deciding factor in the amazing survival of this Utah home while all around it the wildfire decimated everything -- or maybe it was the lack of wind. It certainly doesn't look like the owners established any kind of defensible space:

View attachment 272102

Quail Fire: The Utah home left untouched by flames after wildfire rages through | Mail Online


Probably what saved it was it's proximity to the slope behind it. That would tend to kill the airspeed on the ground at the base of the hill. It's one of the tricks in locating a tent camp in a windy area.
 
   / Wildfire Protection #25  
In our area it gets pretty dry in summer and wet in winter. We are supposed to have 50' primary zone and then 50' secondary zone of protection, for total of 100' radius around the house. That means no dry bushes/undergrowth and tree branches need to be cut at least 8' high, etc. Local fire district came to inspect before we moved into the new house. Because I'm on 320 acres and the closest volunteer fire station is about 5 miles away, I also put in dedicated 2" lines from 5000 gallon storage tanks on the hillside above the house. (2500 gal x 2) The lines terminate at dedicated fire hydrants next to the house and barn, with the appropriate connectors for fire fighting equipment. 5000 gallons doesn't seem like a lot but it can be quite significant when the fire truck can hook up to your system and put out a small fire in seconds without waiting for the next truck. The tanks were not that expensive, considering I use them for regular water storage for the house anyway. As soon as they are drawn down about 500-1000 gallons, they are refilled by the well.

P.S. We also have goats and a donkey that keep the hillside below the house bare...
 
   / Wildfire Protection #26  
Our house is carved out of the woods filled with tall mature trees. When we built we planned on having 100 feet of cleared space around the house for fire and tree fall protection. A late decision on our part move the house 20-30 feet north which put it closer to trees than we liked. We just had a bulldozer push over about 50 feet of trees on that side of the house as more fire and tree fall protection. I have quite a bit of work to do to clean up the trees but it will give us a few years of firewood. :laughing:

Even with the space if the tree crowns catch fire the house is toast. :( Thankfully, those types of fires are not common here but you never know.

I would really like to do a controlled burn in the woods around the house to remove the underbrush which would also kill gillions and gillions of ticks and chiggers! :cool2:

Later,
Dan
 
   / Wildfire Protection #27  
Dan, are controlled burns (also known as burn piles in my neck of the woods) allowed during certain times of the year where you are, especially if you can demonstrate how removing the underbrush protects your home from wildfire?

I was curious and found this, which I'm sure you're familiar with: NCFS - Online Burning Permit System

Perhaps some TBN firefighters can weigh in on how to actually CONTROL a burn in the underbrush if a permit is granted. Bye-bye chiggers and ticks!
 
   / Wildfire Protection #28  
Out here we can have burn piles, late fall to late spring. But... legally they are limited to 4' wide by 4' tall. Otherwise you need special permits.

There are instances when the Forest Service will allow a burn on the understory, but that takes planning with them. And, does not happen very often....

Burning regulations vary greatly. Best place to start getting information is from your local fire station...

Homeowners

http://www.dnr.wa.gov/Publications/rp_fireprev_home.pdf

Homeowners - Firewise

Dan, are controlled burns (also known as burn piles in my neck of the woods) allowed during certain times of the year where you are, especially if you can demonstrate how removing the underbrush protects your home from wildfire?

I was curious and found this, which I'm sure you're familiar with: NCFS - Online Burning Permit System

Perhaps some TBN firefighters can weigh in on how to actually CONTROL a burn in the underbrush if a permit is granted. Bye-bye chiggers and ticks!
 
   / Wildfire Protection #29  
are wells possible in these areas?.... If so why not have some kind of generator powered sprinkler system on the house roof? Naturally you would have to protect it and its fuel underground/cement pump house or somewhere fire proof also cooled by the sprinklers.
 
   / Wildfire Protection #30  
Let's clarify some terms:

a burn pile is cut material, piled and burned per local rules.
It is a form of "controlled burning" in that there is someone there with water, hand, tools, etc (again per local rules), and thus not a "hostile fire."

Burning standing vegetation is another type of controlled burning, usually referred to as a burn out operation, (or firing, burning out, NOT back burn) and is used for fuels reduction, perimeter strengthening of an active fire, etc.

Nationwide, many lives have been lost, and much property destroyed, by planned, professional burn out operations that went awry (became hostile fires);

- the wind came up or changed direction (poor planning?)
- firing was done differently that the plan called for (free-lancing?)
- fire behavior was different than predicted (poor planning?)

Millions have been paid out in damages by the USFS, NPS, BLM, US F&W, and state agencies for these runaway conflagrations. And they had fire behavior analysts, trained firing and fuels management crews, etc, in place.

Then there are the unplanned "just throw a fusee into the weeds" fires that pay no attention to anything; such a fire across the mountains from us killed a herd of cattle and darn near killed several state firefighters.
It was done by an impatient landowner during a large wildfire.

My point?
Go for the burn piles- they are a great tool. Burn your piles in accordance with local regulations, and stay with them, ready to stop spread, flying embers, etc.
Even if the regs don't address this, NEVER burn during east winds if you live west of the Cascades or Sierras.

As for burning out- it is not a good tool for homeowners.
Unless you have your local fire agency working directly with you on the planning as well as the actual operation (and they really know what they are doing), the risks and liabilities are too great.

Alternatives?
Washington state (and many others) uses Fire Wise funds and state corrections fire crews to do no-burn fuels reduction in conjunction with the feds, local fire districts and even city FDs.
This is done at NO COST to the homeowner.

Finally, water tender; this is not an east vs. west thing, any more than wearing seat belts on every trip is. It is standard terminology for the English-speaking world, just like the terms above.
There are also helicopter tenders, fuel tenders, etc, etc.
Yet, I continue to hear folks east of the Mississippi insist that those big pavement queens are "tankers" as if they are trying to fight some sort of government intrusion into their lives by keeping outdated slang.(????)

Worse yet, those of us out west have puzzled for decades about the ongoing firefighter deaths back east as a result of not wearing seat belts while responding... Totally senseless and utterly avoidable.
Are the two connected?

...Retired fire incident commander (west coast)
 
   / Wildfire Protection #31  
Thanks to both RobertN and Branchchipper for all that great information! I appreciate your expertise and advice, especially in light of the fact that my pigheaded Dad refused to apply for burn permits when I was growing up on the farm and probably only escaped burning down our 110 acres and home with lighting all those burn piles because it was so wet in that area of western Oregon.

I've always had a very healthy respect for outside fires even when I'm just using a burn barrel.
 
   / Wildfire Protection #32  
Let's clarify some terms:

a burn pile is cut material, piled and burned per local rules.
It is a form of "controlled burning" in that there is someone there with water, hand, tools, etc (again per local rules), and thus not a "hostile fire."

At least locally here, it is yard trimmings only. I have had the opportunity to extinguish, and pull apart "burn piles" with tires, plastic, insulation etc... Stinky nasty stuff!

Alternatives?
Washington state (and many others) uses Fire Wise funds and state corrections fire crews to do no-burn fuels reduction in conjunction with the feds, local fire districts and even city FDs.
This is done at NO COST to the homeowner.

Here in my county, if you cut the brush and stack it properly, the Fire Safe program will have a crew chip it for free. No Con crew though...

Finally, water tender; this is not an east vs. west thing, any more than wearing seat belts on every trip is. It is standard terminology for the English-speaking world, just like the terms above.
There are also helicopter tenders, fuel tenders, etc, etc.
Yet, I continue to hear folks east of the Mississippi insist that those big pavement queens are "tankers" as if they are trying to fight some sort of government intrusion into their lives by keeping outdated slang.(????)

Worse yet, those of us out west have puzzled for decades about the ongoing firefighter deaths back east as a result of not wearing seat belts while responding... Totally senseless and utterly avoidable.
Are the two connected?

Different districts and different regions, different SOP's? I know I get to drive the Tender :D

Sadly though, there are way too many reports of accidents with firefighters not buckled in. Easily preventable. The park brake does not come off our apparatus, unless everyone is buckled in. I wish it were that way everywhere. LODD are awful, especially when some can be easily prevented.
 
   / Wildfire Protection #34  
Sadly though, there are way too many reports of accidents with firefighters not buckled in. Easily preventable. The park brake does not come off our apparatus, unless everyone is buckled in. I wish it were that way everywhere. LODD are awful, especially when some can be easily prevented.

Ayep. If I am driving, we dont move (if driving onroad) until everyone is buckled in.

Aaron Z
 
   / Wildfire Protection #35  
When I was still working for the power company a man built a huge home across from Chimney Rock in western north carolina. They home was fully automated and could be remotely controlled by phone or computer. We buried an underground primary cable to the house for about two miles. The house had a 30 kw diesel genset in the basement one of whose purposes was fire control. It was in a specially designed sound proofed room in the basement with the exhaust ported to the outside. The house was an adirondack style home and had poplar bark siding. At one point I would estimate there were one hundred men working on the house. The owner had a five acre pond built that fed a sprinkler system that surrounded the house and grounds. He had a helicopter pad as well so money was no object.
 
   / Wildfire Protection #36  
Dan, are controlled burns (also known as burn piles in my neck of the woods) allowed during certain times of the year where you are, especially if you can demonstrate how removing the underbrush protects your home from wildfire?

I was curious and found this, which I'm sure you're familiar with: NCFS - Online Burning Permit System

Perhaps some TBN firefighters can weigh in on how to actually CONTROL a burn in the underbrush if a permit is granted. Bye-bye chiggers and ticks!

A controlled burn in NC is not a burn pile. I have burned a few large piles after waiting for wet weather and pulling a permit. What we really need done is a controlled burn, well, the NC legal term is a prescribed burn. :) In NC a landowner, without the prescribed burn certification, on less than 50 acres can do the burn if they follow the rules. When I read up on this years ago the class to get the proper certification was not very time consuming. I might take the class for grins and giggles but I would hire someone to do the work. :D Foresters usually carry the certification and offer the service.

A few months ago I ran across a NC Forest Service web page that had various rates for prescribed burns. It seems the NCFS charges $15 an acre for a burn with a minimum charge of $350. They have a reasonable charge rate for equipment as well. It looks like if they have to use manual labor to construct a fire break the cost is the actual cost to build and is not listed. In any case, the rates are reasonable. I suspect I would have to clearly blaze our property lines which is easy on two sides. The other two sides would require a survey and I expect the survey cost wold be as much as the burn. :eek:

NC statutes specify how the burns are to be done, and as long as the rules are followed, one is immune from civil action.

We really need to reduce the fuel load in our forest but we had so many trees down from Fran and the waste from logging had me concerned about a prescribed burn. Enough time has past and much of the downed trees have rotted or been cleared up. One of the interesting charges was $25 to protect cavity trees used by Red-cockaded wood peckers. We have had a breeding pair on our place for decades. I have been "chasing" the birds for a picture for that long with no success. :laughing: They are very skittish and fly off at the least movement. It would be worth $25 to FIND the cavity tree. I have looked and looked but have never found the tree. It might be on neighboring property.

Even at these rates, I doubt we will get a burn done any time soon. :eek:

Later,
Dan
 
   / Wildfire Protection #37  
As my entire state of Utah seems to be on fire, I think people should read this post to keep their homes safe. Be responsible and prevent fires.
 

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