will it take off?

   / will it take off? #641  
I always tell people that one of the most important funcions of my tractor is provide me with some good thinking time. I suspect that some of you may feel the same. I also suspect, based on the above, that a lot of you have spent WAY too much time on your tractors lately. Don't be proud, seek help. You can beat this.:D :D :D
 
   / will it take off? #642  
daTeacha said:
Homemade ice cream -- What is making it cold? Fahrenheit knew how cold it gets.

I guess we should actually be phrasing this one in language that reflects the fact that cold is not really quantifiable, but we're talking temperature here, not heat.
It is being cooled by ice being forced to melt without addition of heat. As this is happening, the latent heat of fusion originally taken out of the water to change 32 water to 32 ice must be supplied to the melt. This heat is financed by the ice, reducing its temperature and making it harder to melt. I believe the practical limitation to this cycle when using table salt to force the melt is about 0F. The ice cream will be somewhat above that.
Larry
 
   / will it take off? #643  
Pretty good!

The temperature of water ice and salt is in fact 0 F. This is what Fahrenheit used as the basis of his temperature scale, unlike Celsius who used the freezing point of pure water. jOddly enough, as the salt dissolves the ice, it makes it colder.

A guy could probably win a few bucks betting on whether or not salted and slushy sidewalks are colder than icy ones.
 
   / will it take off? #644  
Hmmm. Addressing the beard thing here.

If the logic of having an infinitesimally small force works for the person leaving the boat, what prevents the aqueduct from being percieved to have a similarly infinitesimally small margin before catastrophic failure? It would seem the same logic prevails.

To use the beard analogy, at what point in the painful process of plucking the hairs from Egons face would there be agreement that he no longer has a beard? When there are 100 hairs left? 50? 10? 1? Or would that have to go to zero? Why doesn't the logic work both ways? And if it does, the aqueduct could indeed be perceived as close enough to failure that a mosquito landing on one of the boat occupants might cause it.

Please bear with me. I am calculus deficient. Thanks to several things, among them a dread fear of counselors, weeder courses, and my own ignorance, as a college freshman I found myself enduring interesting quarters such as one in which I was simultaneously enrolled in Chemisty, Physics, Calculus, Statistics, and Probability. My Calc classes were taught by: 1) A woman with a thick German accent and a speech impediment. 2) A blind guy who literally erased with his left hand as he wrote with his right, moving carefully from one side of the board to the other and talking (mumbling) at the board all the while and, oh yeah, blocking our view of what he wrote. 3) The German lady again. I didn't know about varioius other courses unrelated to my major that I had to take and was wondering why people spent 4 years finishing college. Then I found out about such things as History, Psych, English, etc. being required in college.

Anyways, as a result of my ignorance, I flunked the third calc class way back in '66, and changed majors to Biology. So when you guys start incrementalizing things, I understand the basics of what you're saying, but miss some of the details.

On the coffee problem, why is it that adding the cream early keeps things warmer longer? The specific heat of the cream is close to that of water, and adding it will absorb a fair amount of heat from the coffee, thus reducing the overall temperature while not transmitting any joules of heat energy to the air. So you have used the heat of the coffee to warm the cream while cooling the coffee to a certain extent. This reduces the difference in temperature between the coffee and the air and thus reduces the rate of heat transfer. I understand that easily enough. There is X amount of heat energy in the coffee and you want to reduce the rate of transfer of that heat from the coffee to the surrounding air, napkin fires notwithstanding, by reducing the temperature difference.

However, transferring the heat to cream also increases the warm mass in contact with the cup and indirectly, the air. It increases the surface area at which the heat exchange takes place -- the cup is filled higher, more side area and top of the coffee area are now in contact with the air. Does not the increase in heat transferring area compensate for the reduction in temperature difference? There are going to be convection microcurrents inside the cup, air motion outside the cup, and radiation from the cup, all of which are increased by the increased amount of coffee/cream in the cup.

Your responses almost begin to sound like the old tale that hot water placed in an ice cube tray will freeze sooner than an equal amount of cold water in the same tray in the same freezer.

Point of definition Egon -- talking in third person is fine, but it is twelve that is divisible by 3 and 4 rather than 3 and 4 being divisible by twelve. One presumes you are restricting the question to integers. Might this also mean that you like 6 and 2, but not 5 or 8?

Patrick, we haven't heard from you on the billiard ball problem. Egon says he knows. I know I know. I don't know how many others know. Do you know?
 
   / will it take off? #645  
daTeacha. Good point about coffee cup, exposed surface area, cup contact etc. These factors - not the radiation factor - may carry the day with certain aspect ratios of the vessel [like if it were a saucer], but with standard cup shape and conductivity, the lower T differential would win out. Im sure this could be proven mathematically, but Im not gonna try.
Larry
 
   / will it take off? #646  
Larry, Thanks for the support on the coffee thing. Da Teacha, I'm not sure but it sounds a bit like first you proclaim ignorance and then make claims that those of us who use concepts with which you admit no knowlege are wrong because of some (what seems to me to be) pretty skimpy arguments. YOu can't have it both ways.

Good ole Farenheit. He use the lowest temperature able to be created in a laboratory to be the zero for his thermometer (salt and water was as high tech as they could mannage) and body temperature to be the other calibration point of 100 degrees. OK there is a small misunderstanding and we say 98.6 so maybe he had a fever. 212 just happened as a result of linear extrapolation of the scale. Celcius got it right with zero and 100 as easily reproducible numbers, boiling and freezing points of water at sea level.

Of course the beard thing can argue the delta of the safety margin on the aquaduct to be arbitrarily small but didn't a previous post of yours say one pound from destruction?

The heat loss per unit time of the cup falls exponentially from its greatest value toward zero as the coffee temp falls from its max to the asymptote of room temp (considerably less.) By adding the cream immediately you are using up heat from the coffee that was going to be lost anyway fairly quickly to the environment through conduction, radiation, convection and the faster evaporation at the elevated temp. You are going to take a "HIT" whenever you add the cream but the way I explain pays this penalty with heat that would have been quickly lost anyway.

In a regular car lets say you are driving 100MPH and only have just a little braking power and then the brakes refuse to operate. What do you do? You let the aerodynamic drag take as much energy as practical and reserve braking until later. Same essential strategy as the coffee example.

Larry, Modeling this problem with math is not so tough if you don't mind not solving for a numeric answer (qualitative solution not quantitative.)

Brief digression: If a qualitative solution finds one value to be larger than another, say, x<y then a numerical solution will show the same relationship. IN our case we do not need to know the numbers ony which is larger (hotter.)

Sketch a rough approximation of an exponential decay where the inititial value of the curve on the Y axis is the 210 F coffee. and the curve asymptotically approaches rooom temp (70F) In 5 time constants the temp will have fallen close to the final value (room temp.) The area under the curve per unit time is the heat loss per unit time. Sketch a similar curve for the temp of the coffee starting at the temp you'd get when not adding cream until some reasonble time later (it doesn't matter how long later as any time later is a poorer solution) It should be pretty clear from your sketches that the final temp of the coffee-cream mixture is not the same in the two cases and that the add-cream-immediately strategy preserves a higher temperature longer.

Since a qualitative solution proves the contention then a quantitative solution will do the same but with values. I didn't ask for values just which method ended up with hotter coffee.

This is absobloominglutely NOT similar to the hot water freezes faster myth. I shall not waste your time trying to explain why the two are so very different in the face of self procalimed innumeracy.

My current interest in Billiard Balls is in having a pocket billiard (pool) table to install in my basement fairly soon. I did see reference to a billiard ball problem but have not read the problem so can't have a reasoned comment.

Pat
 
   / will it take off? #647  
Hot water freezes faster because you dont get as much ice. Vapor pressure rises with temperature. The hot water evaporates quickly taking 540calories/gm with it. This along with the fast conduction from the larger delta T causes the hot water to cool extremetly rapidly. The evaporation is the telling factor tho because there is less water left to freeze.
Pat, I get the coffee thing easy, but I dont follow your example. I think theres atypo.
Larry
 
   / will it take off? #648  
Egon is talking in third person because he likes numbers divisible by twelve

What Egon meant to say is " Egon likes numbers that 12 is divisible by."

Combine that with the number of fingers on one hand and you should get the idea.

For the icecream temperature you must also assume sufficient ice was originally provided.
 
   / will it take off? #649  
Patrick -- I sense a tone of some sort in some of your comments. Do not take my quest for understanding as trying to have it both ways. I admit to a comparitive lack of training and educational opportunity in some of the higher levels of math but that doesn't mean I don't grasp the concepts involved.

Taking the coffee cup as an example, the use of the cream as a heat sink of sorts to store the heat at a lower temperature makes sense, but you failed to account for the increase in radiant surface area, which also makes sense. I pointed that out as a question for which I was seeking an answer. If you're going to interpret any question about your answers as some kind of a challenge to the accuracy of your comments, it makes it pretty hard for us ignorant types to learn anything.

Why is it okay for you to split hairs, grasp at straws, or add details to the problem but you seem offended when someone else does the same? The napkin thing is an example. After you mentioned burning the napkin as a way to keep the coffee hot, I pointed out that doing so would cause a certain amount of commotion which the problem specifically mentioned as something to be avoided. You replied with a tone of superiority that you could burn the napkin with sufficient surreptiousness that the waitress wouldn't notice. Perhaps you could with all your survival and backwoods training, but I could also spray the thing with my handy aerosol can of expanding weatherstripping that just happened to be in my briefcase for use in classroom demonstration later that day.

Keep in mind that you are not the only here who can engage in mental exercises. Also, there are probably a few left following this thread who are lurking and not commenting since some of these posts have gotten pretty deep. A simple question about a complex issue followed by a simple answer for all to see will go a long ways to help everyone understand. Please treat my questions as questions, not insults or challenges to your authority. You're the guy who said you just like to debate things, so debate, but don't be offended.
 
   / will it take off? #650  
I say, pour in the cream slowly but do not stir!:D :D

But if you do stir, stir lots, and really muck up the boundary layers and calculations.:D :D

And yes there may be a very definitive danger point when making an attempt at plucking Egon's Beard
 
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