will someone please describe lugging?

[Soundguy]

Spyder... The point that Mike and i are trying to make.. is that 'info' is useless.. if the target audience can't understand it. And by target audience.. I mean at least 80% ( think bell curve here ).

We have people here from engineers to non-tractor-owners.

Look in the repair subs... some people have to ask how to wire up a lamp circuit.

When shooting for that 80% audience..and looking at the entire population you can expect the bottom 10% to still not comprehend your message, and the top 10% to find the message significantly vauge or non technical as to nearly incorrect. In the 80 percentile, you will have more or less a 'top half' that will completely understand the concept being conveyed, and perhaps realize it is not the be-al definition.. but can at least consider it as headed in the right direction.. then you have the bottom half that will understand the info in practicle / usable terms. and even if they do not understand the underlying concepts.. can at least take it at face value for comparison sake.. IE.. observed relationships betweent he advice, and the topic the advice is about.. etc. )

Throw in enough 10$ words.. and you skip right up to that 10% setting outside the curve.

If you want a non tractor analogy here's one.

If I have a bacterial infection, and go to the doctor to get an antibiotic. and while there, I ask the doctor 'why' the antibiotic makes me feel better.. and he tells me that the antibiotic 'kills' the bacteria causing the infection... then.. you know.. that's good enough for most people. I don't really think it's necescary for the doc to go into gram positive and gram negative discussions.. and talk about protien synthesis.. etc.. to tell you HOW/WHY the antibiotic is effecting the disease organism. heck.. in technical terms.. you can find a good many drugs that don't actually kill the organism.. but rather prevent it from doing something... in a technical aspect.. the doc telling you that it's being killed would be wrong.. however.. same observed results for the patient occour.. and he can relate to that.. etc.

Soundguy

 

[SPYDERLK]

Quote jeffinsgf: Well, I for one thought Larry's explanation was interesting and informative. I have known most of my life that "lugging" an engine was a bad thing -- but understanding why is helpful.

I also like the "if you can't accelerate, you're lugging..." shorthand.

Thank you. The reason I went a step further in my explanation was to prevent the inclination to take that shorthand statement at face value. It will lead to downshifting when your engine is just able to hold even or maybe bogs down a little while running safely within its happy rpm range. Lugging only happens in the lower part of the RPM range where normal well controled engine behavior begins to deteriorate if too much torque is asked for. You can lug an engine at 1/4 throttle. If it accelerates it just means you dont lug it long because you either reach an RPM where it doesnt lug or you back off throttle reducing the overload because you dont want to go any faster anyway.

 

[Soundguy]

I'm still not sure why you are outright against the way I explained that. You keep making remarks as if it is totally wrong. for instance your 'face value' comment.

If you are chugging along, and hit a rough spot, and add throttle, and your rpms don't come up.. then you better catch a lower gear.. or change your plan of attack..

Soundguy

 

[dynasim]

Being an engineer, I have to hear this sort of bovine rectum effluent engineer bashing all of the time. Typically, I am tolerant of this, but tonight I am in a fiesty mood.

I personally don't even try to explain a concept to someone that takes more than two paragraphs. Ever. If someone can't understand a concept in two paragraphs, they don't have the background to understand the terms, much less the concept, and the communication is futile.

The people who write pages upon pages, and waste hours of my time explaining multilayered, conspiracy explanations of the simplest concepts, are almost always engineer wannabees. They can't understand the simple explanations, so they make up complex convoluted solutions. They turn engineering(and science) into a religion, in which concepts must be professed and believed, not understood.

Hence, the science about the contribution of bovine rectum effluent to global warming. Oops, I meant to say religion.

Is that simple enough for ya?

Chris

P.S. I read TBN a lot, and haven't seen much of the described behavior here. Almost all of the advice is good, in context, and the differences and "errors" are mostly a matter of opinion. This note is about engineer bashing, not TBN and its great contribution to my limited understanding of my tractor.

 

[Bird]

Is that simple enough for ya?

I guess not, since I have no idea what you said. I can remember when we had a police chief whose favorite buzz words were "meaningful concepts". Now the Merriam-Webster dictionary uses different words, but basically a "concept" is a half baked idea that ain't been thought out. And I never did find anyone who knew which "concepts" were meaningful and which were not.

I think people tend to take offense when their words are referred to as "gibberish" because a lot of people, if not most people, misunderstand what "gibberish" really means and it ain't necessarily bad. And the post in this thread that was referred to as "gibberish" does indeed meet the definition in the Merriam-Webster dictionary.

 

[MikePA]

I think people tend to take offense when their words are referred to as "gibberish" because a lot of people, if not most people, misunderstand what "gibberish" really means and it ain't necessarily bad. And the post in this thread that was referred to as "gibberish" does indeed meet the definition in the Merriam-Webster dictionary.

gib·ber·ish /ˈdʒɪbərɪʃ, ˈgɪb-/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[jib-er-ish, gib-] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. meaningless or unintelligible talk or writing.
2. talk or writing containing many obscure, pretentious, or technical words.

 

[SPYDERLK]

Quote Soundguy: If you are chugging along, and hit a rough spot, and add throttle, and your rpms don't come up.. then you better catch a lower gear.. or change your plan of attack.

I agree with this, but my feeling is that it shows we are thinking about slightly different things. I do exactly what you describe when Im doing loader work or driving around.- Its mostly putting. When Im doing serious steady state work tho, I will choose a gear and go with the engine singing at or near its rated RPM. The throttle has no effect in further increasing torque at RPM settings near high idle. If RPM drops a little [4-500] thru a rough area I dont see a reason for concern unless I need specific PTO speed for what Im doing. If I find I cant make it thru the ruf area at a reasonable rpm I will downshift at the point as close as possible to where set engine speed will match ground speed. Under rated RPM conditions and close to them it is often counterproductive to downshift because max available torque is at rpm below the rated HP rpm. This means the tractor can pull harder as it slows --up to a point. Making use of this characteristic is a valuable tool and a great convenience. It is not lugging until rpm drops much lower while the work continues to demand hi torque. There comes a time where the engine just isnt working right. Flywheel mass and # of cyls comes into play. The rotation of the engine becomes a series of surges in time with the power strokes. Resonances can occur where the timing of the natural twisting of the drivetrain by the power strokes and relaxation between them become complimentary just like pushing a child on a swing. This causes an amplification that is not ok in an engine/drivetrain. It gets your attention by shuddering or becoming a bucking bronco. This is definitely lugging and nobody would think its ok. The problem I see is that this definitive warning is slightly late. Fortunately engines are durable and the correction by the operator is natural and quick. Reduce throttle or shift.

I guess the problem I have with what you said is that it extrapolates naturally to say that lugging happens anytime the engine cannot accelerate, rather than "This tactic will avoid any possibility of lugging". Either way, it is a very general solution. This tends to close off options uneccessarily. Lugging is harmful. Lugging only happens at low RPM -- near idle with hi throttle.
larry

 

[SPYDERLK]

gib·ber·ish /ˈdʒɪbərɪʃ, ˈgɪb-/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[jib-er-ish, gib-] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. meaningless or unintelligible talk or writing.
2. talk or writing containing many obscure, pretentious, or technical words.

If you dont understand it make fun of it. Works for you.

 

[MikePA]

If you dont understand it make fun of it. Works for you.

Providing a definition of gibberish is making fun of it? Interesting thought process. Oh, I never said I didn't understand it. Plus I didn't even post in this thread until you arrogantly said Chris' post was 'far too simplistic'. Instead of letting his and your posts stand or fall on their own merit you had to call his post 'far too simplistic'. Not wrong, just 'far too simplistic'. I guess engineering hubris works for you.

 

[Soundguy]

Not to worry mike.. spyder now suddenly agrees with my explanation which was so simle it was almost plain out wrong back a few posts...

soundguy

If you are chugging along, and hit a rough spot, and add throttle, and your rpms don't come up.. then you better catch a lower gear.. or change your plan of attack.

I agree with this, but my feeling is that it shows we are thinking about slightly different things

Providing a definition of gibberish is making fun of it? Interesting thought process. Oh, I never said I didn't understand it. Plus I didn't even post in this thread until you arrogantly said Chris' post was 'far too simplistic'. Instead of letting his and your posts stand or fall on their own merit you had to call his post 'far too simplistic'. Not wrong, just 'far too simplistic'. I guess engineering hubris works for you.