Will "these" tractor outlast our parent's/grandparent's tractors?

[john_bud]

Look here:
www.MSefi.com • Index page

This is intended for EFI conversion on older gasoline engines, but could probably be adapted to diesels too.

jas67

Sure anything can be adapted to anything given enough time, effort and $$$, but diesels controlled with a gas controller is a stretch.

The engine controller on non-common rail diesel system is the pump. Working like a distributor it gives pressure to the injectors according to camshaft / crankshaft position and the injectors "crack" or pop open at a spring set pressure. No electrons involved.

Common rail systems electrically open the injector and would make sense that a megasquirt system could be adapted. Common rail is just now being used on tractors. It has issues with the high pressures (22,000 psi) and especially water contamination in the fuel. I shudder to think how tractors that are run in the rain and stored outside will fair. And at $3-500 per injector you don't want to be messing with them! Contrast my 1964 ford's injectors at 100 bucks for 4 rebuilt ones delivered.

But while the electronics will fail (ECM's are a VERY common replacement part sold !) the engines, suspensions, bushings, bearings, transmissions and drive systems failing will be more of a concern in 10-40 years. There are some Ford 4x4 tractors made in Japan in the '80's that sell for about 1/2 of what a 1950's 2wd 800 sells for. Why? Can't get parts for the 4x4 front end. Not new and junk yards sold them out years ago. Sure, you can chuck up some steel in a lathe or mill and make the parts , but the price will be about the same as the rest of the tractor! And that's a tractor from the land of Quality (Japan). Just imagine what the ones from China, Korea, India etc will be like.

The old iron will out last the new stuff and still be easier to repair. But the new stuff will be easier to operate and for some things more productive. But for field work 100 drawbar horsepower is 100 drawbar horsepower, the plow don't care if the tractor is shiny. And as they say, a tractor loses that "new tractor smell" after the first load of manure!

 

[RobJ]

How is that much more different though and having to go in and replace sleeves in the motor or seals on 50 year old shafts. I have a friend that has every model of 2 cylinder John Deere machine and still uses them to farm. They require upkeep, things break and leak on them. My cousin has one of the old John Deere caterpillars, they are very very hard to find parts for and he can still get it repaired. Sure it takes a little more effort to fix it because you have to track things down or weld up broken things instead of just replacing it, but it can be done.

Not to throw statistics into the mess, but for every old tractor that is around, how many of its brothers didn't make it this far. How many were on the wrong side of the bell curve and weren't quite the machines that the survivors are. Kind of the "only good tractors get to be old tractors" though.

I think you are making a case for the old iron...is better? I'm saying less computer stuff the better. Ever try and get parts for an IBM PC, or IBM XT? That wasn't that long ago. Sure they are newer programs, but it may not retrofit.

 

[vsteel]

I think you are making a case for the old iron...is better? I'm saying less computer stuff the better. Ever try and get parts for an IBM PC, or IBM XT? That wasn't that long ago. Sure they are newer programs, but it may not retrofit.

No, I am pretty much saying its a wash. Old tractors break, new ones break, parts is parts kind of thing. If you can't find that old widget for the old tractor, its not much different than not finding a ECU for a modern one. Computer stuff is pretty reliable anymore, but I could be biased because I make computer chips for a living.

 

[RobJ]

No, I am pretty much saying its a wash. Old tractors break, new ones break, parts is parts kind of thing. If you can't find that old widget for the old tractor, its not much different than not finding a ECU for a modern one. Computer stuff is pretty reliable anymore, but I could be biased because I make computer chips for a living.

My point is an engine can share the same piston/rod, rings, gaskets, etc for decades, but computer stuff changes a lot faster.

So can you make me some a chip for an IBM XT? For my BIL's old JD 350 crawler, I can buy piston kits from Deere, other US will fits, or imports.

 

[Youare]

Having owned a 1951 Ford 8N for 20+ years and now a 2002 Kubota L3000DT I will say that I hope my Kubota runs as long as the Ford. One of the advantages the older iron that is still around has is that there are parts still available to fix them.

The Ford N series saw production numbers I believe in the hundreds of thousands if not millions of units. The popularity of these tractors have made after market parts available for replacing or rebuilding almost any part of the tractor. The same goes for International, John Deere, and some of the other brands made.

Maybe one of the biggest differences between the new tractors and the tractors made in the 40's - the 60's is the mass of metal used. The older tractors I think were less prone to metal fatigue thant the newer lighter models. Technology today has improved many things and as long as repair parts are available I think the tractors of today could be around many years from today.

The one thing that will prevent this is the tendency people have today to throw things away that break and wanting bigger and better. We seem to want to go faster have the newest. I want to see how many years I can get out of my Kubota.

Randy

 

[davitk]

The one thing that will prevent this is the tendency people have today to throw things away that break

Randy

I think that says it all.

 

[john_bud]

My point is an engine can share the same piston/rod, rings, gaskets, etc for decades, but computer stuff changes a lot faster.

So can you make me some a chip for an IBM XT? For my BIL's old JD 350 crawler, I can buy piston kits from Deere, other US will fits, or imports.

Ha ha ha, that's not a very fair comparison!

The IBM XT was a mid '80's vintage. For this comparison, that's too new!!! It should be "can you make me a vacuum tube for my 1955 vintage TV ? "

But even that's not a fair comparison as there were many many many more vacuum tubes made than tractors, yet I see more tractors roaming the fields that I do Tubes in TV's!

jb

 

[Soundguy]

That would be a good viable soloution for the brains under the dash.. but another issue comes up to be the dash itself. In many cases.. you might have to completely retrofit a dash with new gauges, either sender our bulb based.. depending on the oem design.

getting to be lots of money there to get that drop in computer and make a new set of gauges and dash.. vs just making a tractor that has easilly replaceable modular parts.. etc. I don't really think there is a 'short' answer to this one. The technology exists to deffinately retrofit both analog and digital systems enough to get engine control and real time monitoring under control... At issue is the cost / work involved to do this as time progresses.

soundguy

I notice a lot of comments about electronics and how electronics is THE BIG DOWNFALL TO TRACTOR LONGEVITY. Often what we don't understand (really understand, not just have seen, touched, or used a little) is demonized. One poster wants to go to standard aspiration (carburettors) due to lack of ability with fuel injection... but I digress.

If (a large if, a very large if) the engineering requirements for the inputs and outputs, i.e. functionality of the computer in any given tractor (or truck or car or...) were well known, then it would not be all that hard to program a general purpose replacement microprocessor. Just as drawings or NC listings for making a mechanical part, if well known and fully specified, can be used by many competent machine shops to produce the mechanical part so could the "computer" for most any vehicle, tractor or what have you.

Sure you can't go to Dodge and buy an engine control computer for your F-250 but the same general purpose microcontroller/microprocessor with some signal conditioning support chips could be programmed to work in either application.

You don't have to buy a different home computer to run Word Perfect instead of Microsoft Word, just load in the specific program you want.

Not something for the average backyard DIY maint guy but given the "program" to burn a PROM or EAROM and a parts store would only have to stock JUST ONE 12 volt computer which would be set up for your application dynamically at time of purchase. It would be practical to build in a USB or Firewire or XYZ port to accept the programming. The program could be downloaded from the supplier via the internet so parts stores would not have obsolete versions on hand.

This IS EASY TO DO but requires the owner of the proprietary programing to share it or for someone to reverse engineer each model of computer to be offered for sale. This latter approach might not be cost effective for low volume models.

Pat

 

[Soundguy]

I think you may have your head in the sand... I work in the audio electronics industry... I can tell you that there are a WHOLE LOT of applications that still exist for using vacume tubes.. and if you like buying from post soviet bloc countries.. you can get brand shiney new tubes... They may not be for TV's specifically.. but audio amps effects and compressors all use some of the most common tubes that were also used back int he old tv's and radio's.. etc.

soundguy

But even that's not a fair comparison as there were many many many more vacuum tubes made than tractors, yet I see more tractors roaming the fields that I do Tubes in TV's!

jb

 

[BlackRaptor]

I have a John Deere 70 with a FEL on it.
I would have to say this old tractor is bullet proof.
almost no wrenching on it over the years it always runs.

I know my 2520 won't last anywhere near as long as the 70 did.
Granted the 70 is the biggest pain in the butt with a loader thanks to it being hand clutch. trying to stear run the loader and use the clutch all at the same time stinks.

 

[RobJ]

I have a John Deere 70 with a FEL on it.
I would have to say this old tractor is bullet proof.
almost no wrenching on it over the years it always runs.

I know my 2520 won't last anywhere near as long as the 70 did.
Granted the 70 is the biggest pain in the butt with a loader thanks to it being hand clutch. trying to stear run the loader and use the clutch all at the same time stinks.

That was top of the line when built! My Grandfather had some of those, not a FEL on any around the county. Didn't need them, no cows to move hay for(no hay pastures), they only pulled plows in the cotton and bean fields of Mississippi.

Rob

 

[daTeacha]

Would anyone be willing to hazard a guess as to the percentage of the old models still around? Yes, there a number of Ns and Jubilees and such, but what about the less popular stuff. Those are harder to find for a reason -- they either broke too much or were harder to fix or find parts for, and hence a broken one was either sold as scrap or left to rust into oblivion where it died.

Only the strong have survived. The same will hold true for the tractors we're buying now, except most of us will need dealer help sooner or later whereas the older ones were meant for a person who had a more self sufficient, make do, do it yourself or it doesn't get done attitude than the typical owner of a CUT today. Times, technology, tractors and tractorin' have changed a lot.

 

[Trainer]

Not to sound selfish or mean, but I just want the tractor to last as long as I need it. I have a Kubota L4400, standard shift with FEL and it seems to be well made and simple. With regular maintenance and using it sensibly, I should have a tractor that will last me a long time. I realize the clutch will have to be replaced. When I was a boy we had the 2 cylinder JD's, old JI Case's, and 8N Fords. In fact I have an old Farmall C that needs to be restored.

 

[vsteel]

So can you make me some a chip for an IBM XT?

Technically the way the computer world works, asking for XT parts is like asking for steam engine parts or for Hart Parr "old reliable" parts.

I guess to see if they do last, you can ask me in 50 years if I still have my 2320 John Deere.

 

[RobJ]

Technically the way the computer world works, asking for XT parts is like asking for steam engine parts or for Hart Parr "old reliable" parts.

hehe, exactly my point. And that was just 20 years ago give or take.

 

[dmccarty]

The idea of getting parts for an XT got me curious....

So I googled.....

There are forums with people talking about refurbishing old PCs.



Its sounds like a bunch of guys fixing old tractors....



I would think you would be able to get parts for an old PC/XT/AT.

Later,
Dan

 

[Soundguy]

I have an old Xt in the garage, as well as an older unit using an 8088.. not an 8086.. and it is running on CPM.. I also have a couple tandy hx's ( essentially an xt ).. as well as an old sperry xt clone.. complete with a perstore hdd controller card and some mfm 20meg drives.. herc graphics.. etc... all ran when turned off.. so I'd imagine all prom and dram are still good.. if you like 300ms and 150 ms dram

soundguy

 

[FULLPULL]

Take the TC series tractors they havnt been on the market long enough for the after market companys to kick in gear with parts to replace the things that go wrong with them . I hope they do one day .

 

[RobJ]

The idea of getting parts for an XT got me curious....

So I googled.....

There are forums with people talking about refurbishing old PCs.



Its sounds like a bunch of guys fixing old tractors....



I would think you would be able to get parts for an old PC/XT/AT.

Later,
Dan

That a good point but remember they were around for many years, first 1983, then the upgrade in 1986, then not sure how long they ran after that. We had some in the office around 89'-90'. Hundreds of thousands of them out there. But then take a tractor that makes a 2-3 year run(much smaller numbers...my own L2500 only made a 2 year run) and the number of guys tinkering with them goes way down compared to the PC or XT.

Carburators (sp?) didn't change much over the years on gas engines just line the bosch style inline injection pump on my 1999 L is the same as today and 40 years ago. No computer needed.

 

[Dargo]

.. if you like 300ms and 150 ms dram

soundguy

Oooh, speedy!

From back in my other life, when I owned a computer store, I still have a new XT complete with monitor sitting on the shelf. Heck, I think I have an old 8086 with dual 5 1/4" floppy drives sitting out there somewhere as well. And, those were the 750 drives too, not the 1.2 drives!