Winch Modifications

[BobRip]

Bob,

Did they say it was alright to pass fluid into the PB port?

I am still not understanding this. I WAS WRONG IN THE WAY THIS FLOWS. I MUST RETHINK THIS WHOLE SYSTEM.

Any fluid used by the work ports will flow out the tank/Out port. You can not just vent it. Tank port should go to tank/reservoir. I WILL DO THIS.

The PB port is used to pass fluid downstream.

Your rear valve will work as a winch valve if you do not use the QA valve to reverse the flow through the rear valve. I AGREE AND NOW UNDERSTAND

JMHO

J_J, see my comments above in caps.

After studying the valve drawing again, I realize I misunderstood how it works. Hopefully I will be able to salvage something here. At this point I am not sure. Back to the drawing board.

 

[J_J]

Bob,

I believe the valve will work if you run a hose from the PB port on the FEL valve, and back to the P port winch valve. The flow out of the winch motor will exit out the return/tank port on the winch valve and go to reservoir. I would remove the PB plug and plug the PB port and let all fluid from the rear valve tank port go to tank, if that is the last valve inline.

 

[MossRoad]

Why not just run the winch off of the AUX PTO valve only? That would require just the two hoses and that's it. Once you get more than an arm length away from the winch, the rear valve will do no good anyway. If you need to be near the winch, you could easily put a tube on the end of a bent golf club shaft and just slide the tube onto the AUX PTO valve handle and fix it with a wing bolt. Then operate it from the rear/side of the tractor.

Seems like excessive plumbing and valving going on here.

 

[J_J]

Bob,

I really did not intend to mess up your plans, but it should work if you run the hyd into the P port, and let the motor expended fluid exit the out port to tank. If the rear valve should go to neutral, the fluid would flow out the PB port with the front valve activated.

It's really no different that a remote valve locked down for a 3pt log splitter to use the tractor hyd flow.

 

[J_J]

Why not just run the winch off of the AUX PTO valve only? That would require just the two hoses and that's it. Once you get more than an arm length away from the winch, the rear valve will do no good anyway. If you need to be near the winch, you could easily put a tube on the end of a bent golf club shaft and just slide the tube onto the AUX PTO valve handle and fix it with a wing bolt. Then operate it from the rear/side of the tractor.

Seems like excessive plumbing and valving going on here.

That would work and the winch could still be operated from the seat in a one way pulling condition, with the rear valve locked on. Could reduce the engine rpm to lower the GPM's if necessary. I don't think the PB would be necessary, just let the OUT fluid go back to the PTO valve and then to tank. It's the revers thing that puzzled me.

 

[BobRip]

Bob,

I really did not intend to mess up your plans, but it should work if you run the hyd into the P port, and let the motor expended fluid exit the out port to tank. If the rear valve should go to neutral, the fluid would flow out the PB port with the front valve activated.

It's really no different that a remote valve locked down for a 3pt log splitter to use the tractor hyd flow.

J_J, you did not mess up my plans. You saved me from damaging a valve and possibly creating a hazardous situation. This is one of the reasons I post this stuff. If I had listened to you a little better and read the valve schematic more carefully, I could have fixed it sooner. Thanks so much for your input and that of Moss too of course.

I am actually going back to how I had it valved before with the PB port and tank port plumbed together (just remove a plug) and then back to the aux pto. Of course the P port will be fed from the pressure side of the aux PTO outputs (that is pressure when the handle is held down). I just will only use it in the mode of pressure to the P port (again handle held down). I have made a wood block to hold the aux PTO handle down.

I will be able to use the aux handle PTO by setting the direction with the new valve in back (just figured that out this second). Of course I must always push the aux handle down when doing this. As an alternative I can just use the quick connect hyd fittings and take the new/back valve out of service. Not very difficult to do.

Only problem now is I drilled a hole in the plug going to the T port during my total misunderstanding of the valve. I have to get a new plug. Hopefully I can get one on Monday.

Again thanks for being patience and persistent. I have learned a whole lot of things during this project. I actually value that more than having the winch.

 

[toy]

Bob It may have been already mentioned but have you tried to hook the two hoses going to the motor together so that when you were pulling off the cable that the oil would just recirculate around in the winch motor and not have to pull the oil through the pump and then to the motor? If that might be a solution seems like someone on here has put a ball valve that would with stand the hydraulic pressure on their machine for a different application, maybe you could adapt that to your situation. Maybe an electric sylenoid valve so you could work the valve remotely. Probably everything that I have mentioned has already been mentioned sorry if it has. Just thought I would suggest it if it hadn't.

 

[toy]

Seems to me like when the machine is turned off, without any valves that you have added , when you start the machine the oil that goes to the quick attach circuit from the pump flows freely through that valve and then straight back to the tank. At the quick attach valve the flow to the quick attach coming from the valve is blocked until the lever is either pushed or pulled. The motor on the winch itself is like a pump [when the machine is off] and pulling on the spool of the winch in that state is pulling against a blocked circuit unless the valve is pushed in or out. The open center in the quick attach circuit goes straight through the valve when the valve is in neutral position. When you push or pull the handle on the valve on the QA circuit you are stopping that open circuit and causing the oil from the tank and through the pump to the QA valve and on out to the winch motor where it is called on to do work with the machine running. With the machine off and you are pulling on the winch cable you are trying to pull the oil through the winch motor [which is now a pump] and if the valve is in neutral you are trying to pull against a dead block in the valve chest. With the lever either pushed or pulled you have opened up a flow path from the winch motor through the valve chest and to the pump motor in the engine compartment and that pump is going to pull oil from the tank, that is a lot of resistance to overcome. If you plumed a bypass at the winch motor so that the oil could freely flow from the outlet hose to the inlet hose on the winch motor then the resistance in the winch motor would be all you are pulling against, and not a dead block at the valve chest or pulling through two pumps. I hope that makes sense and I hope it helps since I assume you can't pull the cable out with the power of the pump unspooling it.

 

[J_J]

Wireless hyd control would be the answer, power in and power out. They aren't cheap.

A solenoid valve, and 2 way wireless from up 100 ft.

 

[BobRip]

Bob It may have been already mentioned but have you tried to hook the two hoses going to the motor together so that when you were pulling off the cable that the oil would just recirculate around in the winch motor and not have to pull the oil through the pump and then to the motor? If that might be a solution seems like someone on here has put a ball valve that would with stand the hydraulic pressure on their machine for a different application, maybe you could adapt that to your situation. Maybe an electric sylenoid valve so you could work the valve remotely. Probably everything that I have mentioned has already been mentioned sorry if it has. Just thought I would suggest it if it hadn't.

This was about the first thing I tried. Yes it works but it takes about all the strength I have to pull the cable out ( I guess about 100 lbs of force). To pull it out 25 feet would exhaust me. I have a manual winch that would be much easier that that. This is a very high torque motor and does not turn easily by manual effort.

 

[BobRip]

Wireless hyd control would be the answer, power in and power out. They aren't cheap.

A solenoid valve, and 2 way wireless from up 100 ft.

I like the idea, but it's more money than I want to spend.

 

[FAZTRAC]

Bob
I won't add to the fray on the hydraulics issue, everyone has a different way of doing that. But...you can shorten up your rear mounted rig a lot. You can take a porta band saw or torch and cut some of the male part of your receiver arrangement off and just drill another hole for the pin. Also you really don't need the angles you have welded on there if you have a good weld to your plate, or beter yet just use both of your receivers to pull on. The vast majority of the pulling stress is fore and aft. You can also weld on a single vertical female receiver directly on top of the the horizontal one above the pin and bring your winch in tight to the tractor air vents for the vertical "stored position".
Another remote control idea.... have you considered just a simple cable pendent with a three way spring centered switch on a 12 foot (or whatever distance) cable exension hooked up in parallel to your solenoid valve and joy stick control on the tractor. We use them all the time to control cranes on our boats.
Ain't it fun makin stuff ?!!!

 

[BobRip]

Bob
I won't add to the fray on the hydraulics issue, everyone has a different way of doing that. But...you can shorten up your rear mounted rig a lot. You can take a porta band saw or torch and cut some of the male part of your receiver arrangement off and just drill another hole for the pin. THESE RECEIVERS HAVE BEEN ADDED OVER SEVERAL YEARS AND A LOT HAS BEEN LEARNED. I WILL CONSIDER SOMETHING LIKE THIS. I EVEN CONSIDERED CUTTING A HOLE IN THE VENTS AND HAVING PART OF THE RECEIVER GO INTO THE ENGINE COMPARTMENT. THIS WOULD REALLY MAKE IT SHORT.

Also you really don't need the angles you have welded on there if you have a good weld to your plate, or beter yet just use both of your receivers to pull on. I AM NOT ACTUALLY WELDED TO THE PLATE. THE ANGLES ARE BOLTED TO THE PLATE IN THE EXISTING POWER TRAC HOLES PLUS ONE I DRILLED. I WANTED TO BE ABLE TO GO BACK TO THE PT CONFIGURATION. HOWEVER I HAD NOT CONSIDERED THE LONG OVERHANG AT THE TIME. INSTEAD OF THE ANGLE I COULD WELD THE MALE 2 INCH RECEIVER TO A THINNER PLATE AND THEN BOLT THAT TO THE WINCH PLATE. WOULD THAT WORK? DO I NEED A THICK PLATE THERE OR WOULD 1/4 INCH DO. THIS WOULD SAVE 2 INCHES.

The vast majority of the pulling stress is fore and aft. You can also weld on a single vertical female receiver directly on top of the the horizontal one above the pin and bring your winch in tight to the tractor air vents for the vertical "stored position". I WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO OPEN THE ENGINE COVER AND ADD GASOLINE WITHOUT TAKING THE WINCH OFF. THAT THING IS HEAVY.

Another remote control idea.... have you considered just a simple cable pendent with a three way spring centered switch on a 12 foot (or whatever distance) cable exension hooked up in parallel to your solenoid valve and joy stick control on the tractor. We use them all the time to control cranes on our boats. THESE ARE NOT SOLENOIDS IN THE CIRCUIT I AM USING. IF I SWITCHED TO THE PTO CIRCUIT I WOULD USE THE SWITCH THERE. I WOULD NOT HAVE DIRECTION CONTROL WITH THE WIRE, BUT I COULD STOP AND START THE WINCH AND THAT IS THE MOST IMPORTANT FEATURE. I THOUGH I WAS ALMOST DONE WITH THIS, BUT I WILL CONSIDER YOUR IDEAS CAREFULLY.
Ain't it fun makin stuff ?!!!

YES.

FAZTRAC, you have made a lot of good suggestions. I do not like the way things hang off the back. I originally had a storage shelf on the back to hold the hand powered winch. For this reason I made the receivers longer. I will comment above to your suggestions in CAPS ABOVE. Thanks for the input.

 

[toy]

Bob Rip I went back over the posts and see that my suggestions have already been made. If you can't let the oil recirculate and pull off the cable reel, a sylinoid is out of the question so that makes a wireless remote out of the question, and you can't do it with a hard wire set up. I take it that you can't disengage the gears in the winch to make it easier, and you can't pull the cable off and work the lever at the machine at the same time, and you have no one that can do one or the other that creates a problem, hum. Looks like there would be some means of disengaging it, but since there isn't, is there any way that you could get a large pulley and one of those winches that goes on a boat trailer that you can crank and pull the boat on put the pulley out where you want the winch cable to be pulled to, hook the boat winch up on the pt and pull off the cable and run it out to the pulley and run a rope back to the pt winch and hook it up to the winch cable. Now as you power feed the winch cable off the winch use the boat winch to pull on the pt winch cable to keep it pulled out. When you get it pulled out to where you can attach the load that you intend on pulling hook it up to the load but leave the boat winch hooked up but let it be in free wheel. Now when you pull the load to the pt you are also pulling the cable of the boat winch back out ready to pull the pt winch back out again. That might be on the Red Green show if it is still on.

Bob Rip I am confident that with some thought you will be able to figure out this, maybe something that will allow you to pull out the cable while some way remotely operating that lever that would let it power feed off. On my dust collector I rigged up cables and a knife switch so that I could remotely cut the collector on and off from each of my machines. I also have a dust collector that has a remote switch to turn it on and off although it is for controlling a higher voltage I say that it would also control a lower voltage implement. Couple that with a 12 volt pump and an air actuator to work the lever. I have seen those air actuators in Surplus Supply pretty cheap. I know that these things in and of themselves might not be your answer but it might get you going in the direction that will solve your problem hope so. I hope you get it figured out soon and like I already said I am confident you can.

 

[FAZTRAC]

Bob

1/4 plate is plenty to weld your receiver to if you are only using the Pt to anchor your winch. You are not going to rip the plate in half ! Make three weld passes or pt a short collar or double plate if you are worried.

Something else you might consider is to just hook your cable on to some fixed object, or if no trees are around hook on to whatever you want to pull and just go forward with the PT and use the power of the tractor to spool off your cable. Pulling the cable by hand is not going to get it. PT company should have known better than to market a winch with no way to spool off the cable without powering it out. That is also how you get a "cats ***" tangle in the cable if there is not enough tension on the cable when powering out. Every hydraulic winch needs a clutch mechanism. Use your tractor to pull off the cable, humans are not made to spool off 3/8 cable!

 

[BobRip]

Bob

1/4 plate is plenty to weld your receiver to if you are only using the Pt to anchor your winch. You are not going to rip the plate in half ! Make three weld passes or pt a short collar or double plate if you are worried.

Something else you might consider is to just hook your cable on to some fixed object, or if no trees are around hook on to whatever you want to pull and just go forward with the PT and use the power of the tractor to spool off your cable. Pulling the cable by hand is not going to get it. PT company should have known better than to market a winch with no way to spool off the cable without powering it out. That is also how you get a "cats ***" tangle in the cable if there is not enough tension on the cable when powering out. Every hydraulic winch needs a clutch mechanism. Use your tractor to pull off the cable, humans are not made to spool off 3/8 cable!

I am moderately satisfied with the present setup, or as satified as I am going to get. I will probably eliminate the angle irons as you suggested. I can save 3 inches doing this and shortening the male 2 inch receiver tube.

PT definitely goofed on this design with no free wheeling. If nothing else I hope people realize the issues this winch has and will know what they are buying. I don't want to spend much more money on it as my use is limited. I have a boat winch with a male receiver welded on it. This actually works pretty well for PT recovery.

 

[J_J]

Toy,

Why can he not use a hyd solenoid valve to reel in and out using a wireless transmitter. The fluid would be fed to the solenoid valve from the PTO, or QA hyd output. The solenoid valve would be controlled by the wireless remote. I see no problem at all. He switches the valve to reel out and Bob pulls the cable as he walks to the load. From the hook up point, he switches the valve to reel in, and he can monitor the load as it is reeled in.

The winch appears to be made to power in or out, with no free wheel. You just need a switchable hyd flow to the winch. QA hyd would give low speed, and PTO hyd fast speed to the solenoid valve.

 

[PILOON]

I hope this has not already been suggested.

At the winch inlet and outlet fittings, could not 2 'T's' be inserted with a suitably rated ball valve between the 2 lines?

A sort of manual crossover valve.

This would eliminate fluids from being forced all the way back and the only resistance would be internal fom the pump, which as mentioned gets lesser once the pump is 'broken in'.
Should make hauling the line out manually one whole lot easier.

 

[J_J]

That has been suggested, and you can pull the cable out, but you are making the hyd motor act as a hyd pump and it is very hard to just pull the cable out. As we get older, it becomes less of an option to pull so hard on a cable.

 

[toy]

Toy,

Why can he not use a hyd solenoid valve to reel in and out using a wireless transmitter. The fluid would be fed to the solenoid valve from the PTO, or QA hyd output. The solenoid valve would be controlled by the wireless remote. I see no problem at all. He switches the valve to reel out and Bob pulls the cable as he walks to the load. From the hook up point, he switches the valve to reel in, and he can monitor the load as it is reeled in.

The winch appears to be made to power in or out, with no free wheel. You just need a switchable hyd flow to the winch. QA hyd would give low speed, and PTO hyd fast speed to the solenoid valve.

There probably isn't anything wrong with doing that. I thought that had already been mentioned and it had been ruled out because it would be cost prohibitive because of the expense of the wireless remote. To go along with what you are suggesting if the wireless is out because of expense why not hard wire a switch with a short section of wire that would let him unwind the winch cable until he reached the end of his hard wired switch pulling the cable as he went and then going back and getting another pull on it until he had enough cable off. The solenoid would work the same just a different set up of turning it on and off. Bob wasn't talking about the solenoid being too expensive also was he? If he could find a recoiling type wire to use as the wire to the solenoid that would help him keep from getting it tangled [wire off of a hairdryer]. Bob an old hair dryer not your wife's new one, don't want to get you in trouble.

This is something that I do when I have an electrical appliance that needs tossed, I always cut the cord off and get anything else off that I might need that is still good, and then toss. I keep the stuff assorted so that if I need something it is pretty easily found if I have it. Doing this has saved me many trips to hardware stores and saved me from having to stop what I am doing and waiting to the next day because the store is closed.