roadhunter
Elite Member
Best. Basically west Texas to North Dakota has the most wind to harvest.
wind power???
- Thread starter Robert_in_NY
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Best. Basically west Texas to North Dakota has the most wind to harvest.
KennyG
Elite Member
If you are connected to the grid, you pay the power company for the power supplied and for the infrastructure required to get that power to you. If you feed the power back they pay you only for the power you supply, since you didn't provide any power lines to transmit it. The cost of power generation is generally less than half the cost of power supply, so the arrangement is fair.
OldMcDonald
Platinum Member
Robert, Do not be pushed into it by the windmill supplier. You have all the time in the world. They have to sign you up before another supplier does. Shop around for purchases from other (reputable) suppliers. Your present electricity supplier will be a good source for advice - the more people who supply them, the more reliable their supply, and the less infrastructure they need to build. They win, the power generator (you) wins, provided the windmill supplier continues to maintain your power generation!!
Windpower does work - as does other forms of renewable energy. Here in Portugal those of us connected to the grid receive regular info on the source of energy along with our bill. The latest information I have is for the whole calendar year 2013. Approximately two-thirds of the total energy for the year was derived from renewables. Half (49.6% to be exact) of total energy was from wind power. This is a country that has a lot of sunshine. It normally does not rain from May/early June until late Sept/early Oct, yet wind is preferred to solar power.
Can you confirm the financial system that will apply if you go ahead? Do you use your own generated power and sell the surplus to your supplier - buying when your own is insufficient, or do you continue to buy from them and sell all your production to them? What is the price per kWh you pay and will receive? What is the rated power of the turbine you are being asked to buy? Do you have any other ongoing costs such as payments to a government dept or maintenance fee to the supplier? Are you liable to income tax (presumably at your highest rate) on the income you receive from the electric company? It is not strictly necessary that you post these figures, although it would be interesting, and you do need the info for your own calculations.
Next, be aware that the windmill will not be producing power on a permanent basis, or at the rated capacity. I was an infinitesimal part of a huge study by the Centre for Alternative Technology, Wales for their strategical report "Zero Carbon Britain 2030" - I was one of the reviewers of the Land Use chapter since I have some agricultural knowledge and experience. I tell you this only as background. Included in the report was a statement to the effect that wind turbines cannot be expected to produce more than 30% of their rated potential. That is an extremely important thing for you to know. An often quoted figure is between 25 and 40%, so I think the expectation of 30% is realistic. The ZCB report finds this acceptable on a countrywide basis because the cost of the wind is nothing, whereas using fossil fuels, biomass, nuclear etc. for power generation has a cost that is only likely to increase in the future. It might not be sufficient for the individual who owns one windmill.
The only thing stopping me from having my own windmill is lack of spare cash. The feed-in receipts are exceptionally good here (I do not have the info to hand) but it is also necessary to install a solar hot water system in place of the current electric one at my own expense. I am too old to think about borrowing the capital costs. A neighbour and I have some ideas for producing our own power without the expense of a windmill, but at this stage they are only ideas and a long way from even the experimental stage.
Windpower does work - as does other forms of renewable energy. Here in Portugal those of us connected to the grid receive regular info on the source of energy along with our bill. The latest information I have is for the whole calendar year 2013. Approximately two-thirds of the total energy for the year was derived from renewables. Half (49.6% to be exact) of total energy was from wind power. This is a country that has a lot of sunshine. It normally does not rain from May/early June until late Sept/early Oct, yet wind is preferred to solar power.
Can you confirm the financial system that will apply if you go ahead? Do you use your own generated power and sell the surplus to your supplier - buying when your own is insufficient, or do you continue to buy from them and sell all your production to them? What is the price per kWh you pay and will receive? What is the rated power of the turbine you are being asked to buy? Do you have any other ongoing costs such as payments to a government dept or maintenance fee to the supplier? Are you liable to income tax (presumably at your highest rate) on the income you receive from the electric company? It is not strictly necessary that you post these figures, although it would be interesting, and you do need the info for your own calculations.
Next, be aware that the windmill will not be producing power on a permanent basis, or at the rated capacity. I was an infinitesimal part of a huge study by the Centre for Alternative Technology, Wales for their strategical report "Zero Carbon Britain 2030" - I was one of the reviewers of the Land Use chapter since I have some agricultural knowledge and experience. I tell you this only as background. Included in the report was a statement to the effect that wind turbines cannot be expected to produce more than 30% of their rated potential. That is an extremely important thing for you to know. An often quoted figure is between 25 and 40%, so I think the expectation of 30% is realistic. The ZCB report finds this acceptable on a countrywide basis because the cost of the wind is nothing, whereas using fossil fuels, biomass, nuclear etc. for power generation has a cost that is only likely to increase in the future. It might not be sufficient for the individual who owns one windmill.
The only thing stopping me from having my own windmill is lack of spare cash. The feed-in receipts are exceptionally good here (I do not have the info to hand) but it is also necessary to install a solar hot water system in place of the current electric one at my own expense. I am too old to think about borrowing the capital costs. A neighbour and I have some ideas for producing our own power without the expense of a windmill, but at this stage they are only ideas and a long way from even the experimental stage.
texasjohn
Super Member
Agree with OldMcDonald. Don't rush. Consider the true amount of energy to be generated over time, not the max capability of the generator. I've lately been impressed with the drop in cost of solar and the improvement in its efficiency and lack of maintenance. I'd look into that as well.
bigtiller
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If I could get all that for $18000 I would run not walk away. I think just erecting the self supporting 140 foot tower will cost more than that. Putting a prop with 11 foot long blades on top makes a lot of torque.
IXLR8
Veteran Member
In the town I live in there are 5 wind turbine installations. I had a salesman come by and evaluate my property, I live on one of the higher points in town, and wind conditions. He said no issues and recommended an 80 ft tower. He was bragging about the performance of 4 of the turbines in town, he didn't install 1 of them. He calculated a 7-9 year payback, but the turbine was only warranted for 5 years and I found out yearly maintenance was not included in the payback calculations. I then put up a personal weather station, 35ft above the ground. After a year of collecting data, it showed there was not enough wind to make the system cost justifiable. Maintenance and repairs would have eaten up any "profits" and there would never be a payback. I also talked with 3 of the 5 owners of the wind turbines in town, none of them were making the output they were promised and were disappointed in the systems.
I went solar instead.
I went solar instead.
OldMcDonald
Platinum Member
Good info from IXLR8. Some sites simply are not suitable for windmills - even within a general area that is.
Similarly some sites are not suitable for solar. The best of them "follow the sun", but solar too has maintenance that needs to be paid for. Solar too is not 100% efficient. I do not have the technical details to hand, and you need to do a lot of online reading to get to the truth, but they become less and less efficient as the temperature rises. They become too hot in many places on a sunny afternoon. Remember my previous post that Portugal (a very sunny country) provides half its power from wind, not solar. Again the inefficiency does not matter as much to a country looking to provide maximum power, because, as with wind, sunshine is free. Inefficiency to a single owner does matter. Oddly enough it seems that places with clear winter days can have a higher overall efficiency than clear sky hot summers and clouded winters.
Across the border in Spain there is use of conentrated solar power and that should interest some TBNers. As a starter think of a concentrated heat source to run a Stirling engine, and take it from there.
Similarly some sites are not suitable for solar. The best of them "follow the sun", but solar too has maintenance that needs to be paid for. Solar too is not 100% efficient. I do not have the technical details to hand, and you need to do a lot of online reading to get to the truth, but they become less and less efficient as the temperature rises. They become too hot in many places on a sunny afternoon. Remember my previous post that Portugal (a very sunny country) provides half its power from wind, not solar. Again the inefficiency does not matter as much to a country looking to provide maximum power, because, as with wind, sunshine is free. Inefficiency to a single owner does matter. Oddly enough it seems that places with clear winter days can have a higher overall efficiency than clear sky hot summers and clouded winters.
Across the border in Spain there is use of conentrated solar power and that should interest some TBNers. As a starter think of a concentrated heat source to run a Stirling engine, and take it from there.
dave1949
Super Star Member
Solar PV does lose some output as temperatures rise. Tracking the sun adds cost and maintenance in addition to increasing output. In general though, here in the US and likely other countries have similar resources, if the NREL (National Renewable Energy Lab.) output estimates are used, it doesn't matter from a planning perspective that the panels are more or less efficient seasonally. You have a reasonable certainty that spending $X will get you Y kilowatt hours for a given month on average.
What else does one really need to know about how much does the resulting energy cost? Getting down in the engineering weeds is helpful in selecting types of hardware and increasing one's understanding but solar pv has reached the point that it is like pumping gas/petrol; the price of a gallon/liter will take you so many miles/km for a given vehicle model.
My solar system to-date exceeds the NREL prediction on an annual basis. There have been months that it did not meet the prediction, but not by a large margin.
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dave1949
Super Star Member
From what I have heard about residential wind turbines:
The tower height is critical. 120' is considered a minimum in this area to get the turbine up into non-turbulent air above the trees.
People tend to over-estimate their site's wind resources or fail to use a tall enough tower. The wind speed needed for maximum output is quite a windy day in most areas.
I know from traveling I-90 in Robert's area that it can often be windy, even in summer. This 100-meter wind resource map shows a narrow band of good wind along Lake Erie in Robert's area. NREL: Wind Research - New 100-Meter Map Keeps Pace with Growing Wind Technology
The 140' tower, the available wind resource, those are good beginnings for potential. If the company, nearby reference sites, and financials check out it may be a good thing.
The tower height is critical. 120' is considered a minimum in this area to get the turbine up into non-turbulent air above the trees.
People tend to over-estimate their site's wind resources or fail to use a tall enough tower. The wind speed needed for maximum output is quite a windy day in most areas.
I know from traveling I-90 in Robert's area that it can often be windy, even in summer. This 100-meter wind resource map shows a narrow band of good wind along Lake Erie in Robert's area. NREL: Wind Research - New 100-Meter Map Keeps Pace with Growing Wind Technology
The 140' tower, the available wind resource, those are good beginnings for potential. If the company, nearby reference sites, and financials check out it may be a good thing.
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fishheadbob
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I'm about 15 miles up I 90 from you and watching your situation closely. Here's some random thoughts.
You have plenty of wind. It blows down 400 miles of Lake Erie, up an escarpment, and compresses a bit to give you 12 hours of decent wind on a pretty much daily basis. The nationwide charts don't account for your micro climate, just like all your neighbors growing grapes.
None of the windmills the Thruway Authority installed have turned a blade just yet. Maybe it's just government in typical action. A little farther up Lake Erie from you is Steelwinds at the old Bethlehem site. I drive by there frequently and will rear end somebody someday because I'm always counting how many windmills are turning, how many seem to be down at any time.
I've seen trucks from C.I.R. Electric working on the Thruways' windmills. They're a good company and will probably be around when warranty work becomes necessary , but I don't know who did the work, made the equipment, or is responsible for the warranty. I'm thinking that the Thruway and it's legal department probably vetted the heck out of whatever company did all that. The problem is that if there's a systemic problem that surfaces causing a lot of warranty claims it's too easy for small companies to go under rather than stagger through a mountain of claims. Try finding repair parts then.
How can you tell when a salesman is lying ? His lips are moving. Well maybe not intentionally lying , but emphasizing the positives and downplaying the negatives.
Couple of years back I was on the school board when we installed a co-generation project. Gas to electricity. The technology wasn't there yet, it was a nightmare for us, and a nightmare for Siemens who also took a bath trying to get the project to work properly. It's no fun being on the leading edge of technology, but Siemens is a worldwide giant which probably isn't going belly up on a problem like this..
Lastly, C.I.R. was out pitching solar panels to me last spring. While it sounded great, their salesman led me to geothermal (which they don't sell). I'm too old to continue cutting 20-30 cords of wood, I don't have natural gas on my farm like you probably do, and oil or propane would cost way too much. This was my kind of salesman. He put my interests above his commission when he gave me a geothermal recommendation. When I recover from the staggering cost of geothermal, and after I see how much additional electricity the geo. eats, I must look this guy up for some panels.
Good luck with your decision, please keep us posted.
You have plenty of wind. It blows down 400 miles of Lake Erie, up an escarpment, and compresses a bit to give you 12 hours of decent wind on a pretty much daily basis. The nationwide charts don't account for your micro climate, just like all your neighbors growing grapes.
None of the windmills the Thruway Authority installed have turned a blade just yet. Maybe it's just government in typical action. A little farther up Lake Erie from you is Steelwinds at the old Bethlehem site. I drive by there frequently and will rear end somebody someday because I'm always counting how many windmills are turning, how many seem to be down at any time.
I've seen trucks from C.I.R. Electric working on the Thruways' windmills. They're a good company and will probably be around when warranty work becomes necessary , but I don't know who did the work, made the equipment, or is responsible for the warranty. I'm thinking that the Thruway and it's legal department probably vetted the heck out of whatever company did all that. The problem is that if there's a systemic problem that surfaces causing a lot of warranty claims it's too easy for small companies to go under rather than stagger through a mountain of claims. Try finding repair parts then.
How can you tell when a salesman is lying ? His lips are moving. Well maybe not intentionally lying , but emphasizing the positives and downplaying the negatives.
Couple of years back I was on the school board when we installed a co-generation project. Gas to electricity. The technology wasn't there yet, it was a nightmare for us, and a nightmare for Siemens who also took a bath trying to get the project to work properly. It's no fun being on the leading edge of technology, but Siemens is a worldwide giant which probably isn't going belly up on a problem like this..
Lastly, C.I.R. was out pitching solar panels to me last spring. While it sounded great, their salesman led me to geothermal (which they don't sell). I'm too old to continue cutting 20-30 cords of wood, I don't have natural gas on my farm like you probably do, and oil or propane would cost way too much. This was my kind of salesman. He put my interests above his commission when he gave me a geothermal recommendation. When I recover from the staggering cost of geothermal, and after I see how much additional electricity the geo. eats, I must look this guy up for some panels.
Good luck with your decision, please keep us posted.
