Window/door question

[Wayne County Hose]

Okay Charles, I'll do the best I can. I do have some knowledge, probably a little more than I claim to have.

I was there when he installed many of the windows. Here was the procedure. Cut the house wrap, fold all 4 pieces inside and staple. Install the window. Make level, while guy inside is holding level with a prybar, guy on outside nails the flanges. No vycor type flashing, no caulk, no shims.

Good idea with the Simpson ties on the porch. The porch opening is on the side of the prevailing wind. Pretty much the direction most of the storms come from. This guy is not a believer in any type of ties or hangers.

I'm going to go look for that book right now. I have the UCC code book, but it is barely understandable to the common idiot like me.

 

[dmccarty]

How is the porch floor joists attached to the house?

Are they resting on the foundation?

Or are they attached to the header/rim joist? I'm talking about the 2x? that is running parallel to the foundation and perpendicular to the floor joists.

If the port floor joists are attached to the header/rim joist is it with threaded bolts or lag screws. Decks fail frequently because the deck attachment to the house is inadequate. It takes quite a bit of lag screws to support some loads.

Anywho, if this is a problem, Journal of Light Construction can throw some light on the issue.

Later,
Dan

 

[Wayne County Hose]

Dan, they are simply nailed to the rim joist. I am going to lag bolt them with stainless bolts. Yea, galvanized would be okay, but I can get stainless for close to the same price.

 

[Charlesaf3]

Nailed is NOT acceptable! Lag or bolt.

Windows have to be vycor-d before housewrap. peeling them in like that is bad practice - now water could be directed in.

Prybar plumb and level is standard. Do the windows open and close easily? That's the key test.

I'd put vycor over the rough sill, then the windows directly on the sheathing. Plumb and level. shim as necessary, depending on the structure. Next vycor in an upside down U over the fins, legs first. Usually not on bottom to give any water that gets in a hope of getting out.

Then housewrap over, once again from the bottom up so water is directed out. I don't tape the housewrap, some will disagree with this. I don't think it's necessary if you frame well, and I want the water to leave once again.

Next, window trim. Sill, legs, cap out over legs, flashing up the wall and down over cap (I use lead, there are other options, aluminum and copper).

Then siding down over the cap flash.

That's the way carpenters have been doing it for 100s of years (x vycor) - it won't leak.

 

[Charlesaf3]

oh and watch for water detailing where the deck ledger hits the house. That's a big rot area if not handled right, though a roof over it will save a lot of grief. But windblown rain goes surprisingly far.

 

[dmccarty]

Dan, they are simply nailed to the rim joist. I am going to lag bolt them with stainless bolts. Yea, galvanized would be okay, but I can get stainless for close to the same price.

I take it nailed means no joist hangers?

The problem with lag bolts is that they are lag bolts and not a bolt, washer, and nut. Depending on the width of your porch and its design load you might need a lag bolt every six inches.

JLC had a discussion on attaching decks to the house. The number of bolts/washer/nuts needed to handle the load can be surprising. Using lag bolts and you needed even more. I'm gong to make up numbers and all of this depends on the size and design load but you might need a bolt/washer/nut connection every 18-24 inches. With a lag bolt for the same load you might need one every six inches.

Given how many people have been hurt and killed by deck failures caused by inadequate attachment to the house its shockng that this passed inspection.

Hopefully I'm going off half cocked and the porch joists are on joist hangers but it seems like you said he did not use those in a previous post.

I'm not a PE, I did not stay in a Holiday Inn last night but I do read. So I am dangerous.

A porch 6 foot deep and 10 feet long is 600 sq ft. Say the design load is 40# per sq ft. that is 24,000 pounds. Half of that load will be on your posts. Looks like they are short and 4x4s so they are likely ok structurally. The attachment to the house has to support 12,000 pounds. If you put in four bolts those bolts would be handling 3,000 pounds each.

Say the porch was 10 feet deep. Now you are looking at 40,000 pounds with 20,000 pounds on those four bolts. Or 5,000 pounds per bolt. if you put in 20 bolts that would mean each bolt would support 1,000 pounds.

So the question is how many bolts does one need to support the design load? I'm not smart enough to answer the question, I just smart enough to ask the question.

Anyhoo this is something code should cover. We had a accident on a porch locally a few years ago at house were there was a party. A bunch of people were on a deck that was 10 feet or so above grade. The deck failed at the rim joist connection. There were broken bones and serious injuries. Right before the deck failed a bunch of kids were under the deck. If they had been under there they likely would have died.

The one good thing about your porch is that its covered. Many deck failures are also caused by inadequate or non existing flashing. The structure gets wet, rots, and then fails.

Hopefully I'm just blowing smoke in your case but it might helpsome else.

Later,
Dan

 

[Charlesaf3]

yep. For me 2 lags every 16" at least. And I use a girder instead of a structural rim. Though I still double the rim and timberlok it to the joists.

Nuts and bolts are better of course.

A cordless impact wrench makes the process more fun.

 

[Charlesaf3]

and per above, make sure the ledger is either flashed or has a drainage space with siding behind it (I'm belt and suspenders, I do the second, but I'm guessing the deck is framed with no space between the ledger and the house, so flashing it is fine. I'd probably do metal over vycor down first. keep water out on the top, and leave it a place to go on the bottom, that is not inside your walls.

On the deck itself, I do mahogany. Noticeably more expensive relatively than PT, but in absolute terms not much over a porch - $800 maybe? Lifecycle cost its cheaper - no need to replace in 15 years. And a much nicer deck, pretty and no splinters.

 

[davitk]

I was there when he installed many of the windows. Here was the procedure. Cut the house wrap, fold all 4 pieces inside and staple. Install the window. Make level, while guy inside is holding level with a prybar, guy on outside nails the flanges. No vycor type flashing, no caulk, no shims.

I am late in on this discussion, and confess have not read its entirety. However, as you must have figured out by now that your builder is a bit behind on the times and has not learned from history. Housewrap is no longer installed this way, by folding the top inside the wall framing (standard procedure at one point in time) it potentially directs water on top of the window and thus into the house (especially if the flanges are not caulked). It is now (and has been for years) recommended that the housewrap above the window be allowed to hang over the flange, like a tent flap, directing water outside of the building envelope.

Lots of luck to you, this really sucks. I make much of my income fixing problems created by builders like yours. Keep your chin up.

 

[Charlesaf3]

you caught things early enough, this'll be fine after a bit of hassle. Pain is when the finishes are ove these things, and you have to rip them off to fix things.

 

[tommu56]

Andy the straping should come off windows before putting the vicor on.
I would double check them for plumb and level unless you are pulling them out to put vicor on sill its easy to ficx them now. if windows dont work correctly

tommu

 

[EddieWalker]

I didn't notice any issues with the framing. He used more jack studs then normal, but maybe that's code in your area? I've never seen it done, but studs are cheap and it's better to have too many then not enough. His workmanship on the framing looks good. The lumber fits together tightly and seems straight from what I can tell.

The windows look like amature hour. I wouldn't use expanding foam around a window. There is some stuff that is suposed to be ok around windows, but I don't take that risk. When the foam expands, it puts preasure on the window and all sorts of things happen. None of it good. Do they still work?

It also looks like caulking between the OSB. It's white and it's in the seams of the OSB sheets. I don't recognize it, but wonder if he caulked it to make it weather proof?

Are those stairs permanent? They look like temporary stairs for working, but I want to make sure before saying anything.

What's the plan for the overhang on the back, outside wall? Looks like it was framed, then forgotten. No decking or flashing on it yet. Why shingle most of the roof, but not that part?

You said that he only used joist hangers on half of the beams. Did you take pictures of the beams without the joist hangers? Are those the ones resting on top of the walls? If so, you don't use joist hangers when the beam is resting on the wall.

My impression from the pictures is he has some skill as a carpenter and framer. He is over his head on windows and making a house weather tite. I'm thinking that he's worked on a crew, but doesn't have any experience being in charge of decided how it's to be done. Tell him to cut an angle and it's done. But as soon as he got to an area he hasn't done before, he failed miserably and was too proud to be honest about it.

The windows are a disgrace.

Eddie

 

[CurlyDave]

Are those stairs permanent? They look like temporary stairs for working, but I want to make sure before saying anything.

I think the plan is to have some kind of a deck at the back of the house, despite the gravel there now. Look at the sliding glass doors to the left of the stairs.

I am presuming that the front of the house is the side with the covered porch.

The setting of the posts under the porch is OK, although I would have raised the concrete further above ground. As it is, you will have to maintain the tops of the concrete clear of debris to prevent termite access.

How are you planning to screen in the area under the porch? If you do not do something to prevent it, that area will become a wildlife refuge for raccoons, skunks, possums, etc.

I have to agree with Eddie that the framing looks pretty good to me. I like extra studs. BTW, at about this stage of construction, possibly a little before, we had all the framing sprayed with something called Tim-Bor, which is a Boron material that acts as a wood preservative, mold and termite preventative. I think it also helps with dry rot.

I have done enough remodels to know untreated wood rots & deteriorates over time, and a few dollars worth of prevention at this stage goes a long way toward preventing problems in the future.

 

[Wayne County Hose]

Eddie,

You never cease to absolutely amaze me. I had no problem at all with his carpentry skills. The frame work is fine, as you say. This guy is actually a very skilled framer. There are extra studs in the first floor walls as they have some load bearing. With the 2' cantilever in the front (porch is the front) I wanted to take weight off of the front and distribute to the middle. The architect agreed, so it was designed to have load bearing walls in the middle of the house. The stairs are temporary, for construction only.

The commercial building I rent in is owned by a very large window/glass contractor from out of state. He told me to use low expanding foam around the windows. The Andersen instructions also say that, so I thought it was a good idea. My heating contractor told me to caulk the seams of the OSB and anywhere else air may come into the frame.

The unfinished frame on the back wall is a continuation of the 12-12 pitch roof to the left side when you look at the pic of the rear of the house. This is another of those things that he didn't finish.

I already placed joist hangers on the joists going to the blind header. I should take pics of the ones he put in crooked before I repair them. Another contractor told me that he was working oin a job with this guy. When the contractor brought a box of joist hangers and hurricane straps to the site, this guy told him to "take those things back, I don't use them."

Eddie, I hope you get discovered. You should do a tv show. You can look at a picture over the internet and give the history and ability of the person that did the work. You also know what to do, what not to do, and how to correct the damage done. Your talents are many and I truly appreciate your help. I also appreciate everyone elses help, please don't feel left out and not appreciated. Curlydave, Charles, Dan, tommyu, thanks everybody for all your help.

Oh, when he met me at the house, he asked me what was wrong. I asked him if there was anything wrong with the way the windows were installed. He asked what was wrong with them. I went thru the procedure for installing windows. He looked at me like a deer in the headlights and said, "Maybe I should retire." I told him, "Maybe you should." Believe it or not, I actually felt bad for the guy. He isn't a bad person, I just think he needs to research what he doesn't know. Nobody knows everything, the secret is to find the info you need to do it right and not be too proud to admit that you don't know everything. Through all this, if he swallowed his pride and came back with every intent of making things right, I would still be his friend and let him continue.

Thanks again, Andy.

 

[Wayne County Hose]

CurlyDave,

I am going to put cedar chips under the front porch and then close in with lattice. The grade at the back of the house is going to come up about another foot. We always had water drainage issues back there. I am putting in a french drain. We will also put about another foot of stone over what is there now and do a bluestone patio. I have a bunch of customers that are bluestone quarries and can get the seconds for nothing.

I will look into that Tim-bor stuff. I am huge on preventative measures.

Thanks, Andy

 

[randy41]

when i built my house more than 10 years ago i folded the house wrap into all the window and door openings and i have not had any water issues with it. pine board and batten siding.

 

[Charlesaf3]

I generally agree with eddie, but disagree on the low expanding foam, though I understand his very valid concerns. If you do not use the good, very low expansion stuff, you'll put the windows under way too much pressure.

On that front, you should consider using one of the spray foam insulations - much more energy efficient and the guys who apply it will also do the windows.

I totally agree with eddie's excellent call - good framer who's in over his head. Though a framer should know how to put windows in...

Randy - you might be lucky, or you might have a problem and not know it - the water that drips into the walls and causes rot doesn't show, its the rot you see after a few years. Water that comes inside the house isn't the worst thing, its water that sits in the walls

 

[Wayne County Hose]

On that front, you should consider using one of the spray foam insulations - much more energy efficient and the guys who apply it will also do the windows.

I looked into this stuff, icynene in particular. I got a quote to do it, about 6 grand for the whole house. I do like the stuff and had my heart set on it, until I talked to a couple people. It is great if you never plan on or need to do anything in the walls. My brother, the electrician, told me if I get that stuff, that he would wire my house and after the insiulation is in, he would never touch a wire again. You can't pull a wire or snake a pipe thru it. You have to tear the wall apart. Fiberglass insulation you could always move around. I'm thinking about just having the ceilings done. They are all 2x12 rafters, and they only put 6-8" of insulation, so there is some wiggle room.

 

[Charlesaf3]

Yeah, that's true, its a downside, but if you run conduits etc you can allow for it. I still think its worth it - downside of the ability to move glass is the air is moving through also. Energy being what it is, in a place I live some sort of good insulation would be key. I just make sure all the wiring that's going in is IN. Plus empty conduit as people mentioned above.

Wet blown cellulose is pretty good, better than glass, and you can fish through it.

I'd sure do the roof. But do it per Lstibureks specs - a tight no vent roof/attic is the best one if done right, and worst if done wrong.