Windows XP or Linux.. don't go to next MS OS

getut · Jul 18, 2005

Re: Windows XP or Linux.. don\'t go to next MS OS

Ok Mike, here is one last (true) example.. how do you feel about this one. This is a DRM issue that I got involved with just about a week ago.

One of our programmers has a laptop that has some Mitsubishi PLC programming software installed. The software is protected with the "Product Activation" style of DRM. Because he is a field technician, his laptop take lots of abuse and at least twice a year, it fails because of that abuse.

A backup of the laptop does not work. The activation code will not back up and restore properly. I replace his ruined hard drive, reinstall everything and call Mitsubishi to re-activate the software. They refuse to provide the activation code because they show the software has already been activated 3 times before. After spending close to 45 minutes slowly escalating from polite to irate, I finally get a manager and tell them the problem. He argues that it has been activated twice and there is nothing he can do. I say that I don't care if it has been activated a hundred times. I explain the laptop was damaged and if that if he gave me the number and 10 minutes later the laptop died, that he would be giving me the number again...we purchased the software, if you won't allow us to use the software then we either require a refund or you will be getting a letter from our lawyer.

He submitted and gave me the number but left saying.. this is the last time. I left saying OK.. you go ahead and believe that.

Do you not believe that is stealing from the consumer???

_RaT_ · Jul 18, 2005

Re: Windows XP or Linux.. don\'t go to next MS OS

I see it as industrys way of saying, sure, copyrights, patents etc. protect us from other manufactuers stealing our product, but at the consumer, I think most have given up on the idea that there will be any meaningful form of protection via prosecution. One trip to China will explain this so very clearly. Heck, I have family members who violate this on an ongoing basis. They where the epitome of Napster users.

PBinWA · Jul 18, 2005

Re: Windows XP or Linux.. don\'t go to next MS OS

( Ok Mike, here is one last (true) example.. how do you feel about this one. This is a DRM issue that I got involved with just about a week ago.

One of our programmers has a laptop that has some Mitsubishi PLC programming software installed. The software is protected with the "Product Activation" style of DRM. Because he is a field technician, his laptop take lots of abuse and at least twice a year, it fails because of that abuse.

A backup of the laptop does not work. The activation code will not back up and restore properly. I replace his ruined hard drive, reinstall everything and call Mitsubishi to re-activate the software. They refuse to provide the activation code because they show the software has already been activated 3 times before. After spending close to 45 minutes slowly escalating from polite to irate, I finally get a manager and tell them the problem. He argues that it has been activated twice and there is nothing he can do. I say that I don't care if it has been activated a hundred times. I explain the laptop was damaged and if that if he gave me the number and 10 minutes later the laptop died, that he would be giving me the number again...we purchased the software, if you won't allow us to use the software then we either require a refund or you will be getting a letter from our lawyer.

He submitted and gave me the number but left saying.. this is the last time. I left saying OK.. you go ahead and believe that.

Do you not believe that is stealing from the consumer??? )

Doesn't this all depend upon the terms in the software sales agreement/license ? If the license explicitly denies the right to transfer the software from computer to computer then they are "in the right". If the license does not define this area at all then I suspect the state/federal laws will protect you the consumer. I'm pretty sure that a lot of these things are covered in software licensing agreements. It may take a lawyer to read through and discern them but that is the bed we have made for ourselves. A lot of people purchase and install software without reading the software license agreement (I know I do).

High-end proprietary applications like yours are often very finicky in this area. Not sure that this is really a DRM issue though. This practice has been going on for many years. I've seen fun with dongles and codes tied to the MAC address of the NIC (lots of fun with multi-NIC machines). In the end it always takes some form of tantrum to get it resolved. Such is life.

Glad you mentioned Mitsubishi - at least they make tractors too. Just trying to keep these threads remotely related to tractors.

/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

DaNag · Jul 18, 2005

Re: Windows XP or Linux.. don\'t go to next MS OS

( If the buyer doesn't like the restrictions imposed by the seller, then they should not buy the product. )

Sellers can not impose illegal restrictions on their products. If the seller is imposing restrictions on their product that have been expressly allowed by the US Supreme Court as Fair Use, then their restrictions are not enforceable.

I'll respectfully suggest that anyone who sides with the content providers, be it software, music or movies, educate themselves on Fair Use rights. If you know what your rights are, and are willing to give them up, fine - just don't suggest that the rest of us should as well.

PBinWA · Jul 18, 2005

Re: Windows XP or Linux.. don\'t go to next MS OS

( ( If the buyer doesn't like the restrictions imposed by the seller, then they should not buy the product. )

Sellers can not impose illegal restrictions on their products. If the seller is imposing restrictions on their product that have been expressly allowed by the US Supreme Court as Fair Use, then their restrictions are not enforceable.

I'll respectfully suggest that anyone who sides with the content providers, be it software, music or movies, educate themselves on Fair Use rights. If you know what your rights are, and are willing to give them up, fine - just don't suggest that the rest of us should as well. )

Had to take this bait:

From:

http://www.bitlaw.com/copyright/fair_use.html

"Compulsory Licenses: Generally, the exclusive rights granted by the United States Copyright Act (described in detail in the BitLaw section on the scope of copyright protection) may be exercised as the copyright owner sees fit. If an author of a manuscript does not want the manuscript published or distributed, the author as the copyright owner can prevent publication and distribution. Similarly, these rights can be controlled through licenses however the copyright owner desires (described in more detail in the BitLaw discussion on copyright transfers and licensing). However, several limited exceptions to this rule have been made in the Copyright Act under the guise of compulsory licenses. These compulsory licenses allow third parties to copy, perform, or distribute certain types of works without the copyright owners permission, in exchange for which the third parties must pay a predetermined royalty amount.

These compulsory licenses are extremely limited, and apply in only five circumstances:

the production of new sound recordings based upon an existing nondramatic musical recording;
the performance of a nondramatic musical recording in a jukebox;
the simultaneous retransmission of television signals by cable television operators;
the performance, display and recordal of certain works by public broadcasting entities; and
a temporary right to retransmit television signals via satellite to household satellite dishes.
Before taking advantage of any of these compulsory licenses, an individual should consult with a knowledgeable copyright attorney.
"
I'm not sure how this description of fair use applies to a software creator that licenses their product for the use on a single machine. All I was emphasising was that the example provided was not really appropriate.

This whole DRM issue is driven by the content producers. It will undoubtedly result in some great court cases that will make some lawyers rich and the rest of us confused.

Ultimately, I will vote/decide on what I want with my pocket book. If I really want to pay $5 to see a TV show then that will be my decision. No one is going to suffer because they can't watch a show on their own terms.

This whole issue is moot as the consumer will ultimately decide. I don't have cable or satellite. I don't even care if my TV ever gets turned on. Haven't been to a movie in ages and only watch DVD's that we rent for $1 at the local drug store. That's how I deal with all these issues.

Please get back to tractor talk.

MikePA · Jul 18, 2005

Re: Windows XP or Linux.. don\'t go to next MS OS

Please get back to tractor talk.
Didn't one of the tractor manufacturers (a long time ago) have their own line of three point implements that only fit their tractors? Kind of an IRM, Implement Rights Management, solution. /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif It didn't last long because people refused to buy their tractors.

hobbyfarm · Jul 18, 2005

Re: Windows XP or Linux.. don\'t go to next MS OS

( Didn't one of the tractor manufacturers (a long time ago) have their own line of three point implements that only fit their tractors? )

Yep,
Allis Chalmers had the snap coupler
Farmall had the fast hitch
Ferguson had the three point hitch! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

PBinWA · Jul 18, 2005

Re: Windows XP or Linux.. don\'t go to next MS OS

( Please get back to tractor talk.
Didn't one of the tractor manufacturers (a long time ago) have their own line of three point implements that only fit their tractors? Kind of an IRM, Implement Rights Management, solution. /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif It didn't last long because people refused to buy their tractors. )

Exactly! However, maybe John Deere's iMatch system is going to be some sort of threat. What if JD started selling their tractors with straight iMatch hitches (no 3 pt connection) AND they sold the iMatch tractor for $2000 less than an equivalent tractor with a 3pt connection. Then you would have to buy JD iMatch implements at a premium of 10-30% above standard implements. When you factor in that the average tractor owner owns 3-4 implements then JD can start to get some market share while still recouping the additional price. That would work until somebody created an iMatch to 3Pt conversion system. However, if JD lawyers have copyrighted the iMatch system then would this be some form of Implement Rights Management system?

Sorry, I'm procrastinating on doing real work. I've got to get back to my .NET/C# rip off of some open source Java app.

/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

riptides · Jul 18, 2005

Re: Windows XP or Linux.. don\'t go to next MS OS

And in regards to IRM we have iCRM - insurance carriers rights management. Discussed verbosely, when moving your tractor off your property.

I think fair market practice and our spending habits will form the right solution for these copyright/rights issues. I fear them not.

Plus if you know where to look you can always find a hack. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif<- Now that was really uncalled for, but true. /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

-Good points all.
-Mike Z. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

getut · Jul 18, 2005

Re: Windows XP or Linux.. don\'t go to next MS OS

( Sorry, I'm procrastinating on doing real work.)

I've had hold music in my ear all morning getting bounced around IBM tech support for Domino and DNS issues. TBN makes a great time passer while doing tedious stuff. I'm going to have a crick in my neck from holding the phone with my shoulder and typing though. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif