Wisdom on gun purchase please?

Ozarker · Jun 23, 2004

( What happens if the perp double taps first ? )

The same thing that would happen if he "double taps" and you are unarmed and trying to whine on the telephone for some armed government agent to come save you from the mean man.

Whats wrong Egon? Are you one of those who believe that the average individual is too stupid to defend his/her self? Do you think if you just make nice the mean man won't hurt you?

Here's the deal. If he breaks into your house and he's armed, you better have the means to stop him. Because he is going to hurt you if you don't. The police can't protect you. All they can do is draw the chalk lines and try to find out who it was that did that to you.

That might be OK with you but not me. When the police come to my house the investigation will center around why I shot him.....not around who shot me. And no, he is not going to shoot me first. He is going to be too busy trying to stop my dog to worry about me.

Egon · Jun 24, 2004

Me thinks the average individual is just like me only maybe a whole bunch sharper. They do just fine figuring out the broad spectrum for themselves and making their way through life.

Egon

Ozarker · Jun 24, 2004

( Me thinks the average individual is just like me only maybe a whole bunch sharper. They do just fine figuring out the broad spectrum for themselves and making their way through life.

Egon )

Your answer is closer to the truth than you know but why are you avoiding the question?

Gary_in_Indiana · Jun 24, 2004

"when you fire a bullet, you also own it.. I wouldn't want to "kill".. I have no problem wounding... " 

I sincerely hope never to need to unholster my gun. As I'm sure many have said here earlier, the only reason (for me) to do so is to kill another human being (please leave the rabid animal argument for another day). The most frightening part of having a gun, for me, is that I know I'm very capable of using it for that purpose. For that reason, I'll do everything in my power to keep it holstered.

I admire you for being able to shoot to wound someone and to have the confidence to do that. I don't. My thinking, right or wrong, is that if I aim dead center in the torso I have a far better chance of hitting some part of the attacker than if I aim for a shoulder. If I aim for the center of the torso I've probably got four to six inches or more horizontally and maybe a foot or more vertically before I miss completely.

If I aim for a shoulder, my odds of missing completely go up dramatically. Again, if I'm going to shoot, I don't want to miss even once as it could be the last thing I ever do.

MossRoad · Jun 25, 2004

I haven't found any posts here yet where anyone wrote or implied that the average person is too stupid to defend themselves.

I have seen many people agree the number one rule is to get away from the danger if at all possible and when that is no longer possible, defend yourself to the fullest.

The mention of the "double tap" to me at least, brings two thoughts...

1. someone who has combat shooting training(such as police officers, competitive shooters and others with advanced handgun training),

OR

2. someone who wants to express their machismo, has watched too many movies and lives in a fantasy world.

No offense to anyone intended there, but I have met my share of gun owners. Most are not trained, do not practice often and would be worthless in a panic situation, let alone have the presence of mind to do a double tap. If they see a person in their house they are going to empty the weapon ASAP and keep clicking the trigger long after they are out of bullets.

The reality for me is that if I am sound asleep and I hear a loud noise at night, I will be startled and confused for 10-30 seconds depending on what stage of sleep I am in. I doubt I would have the presence of mind to put my hand on my gun safe and trigger the lock, open the safe, pull the weapon and be ready for combat in a heartbeat. Once I had the weapon out my heart would be pounding and I would be breathing very hard. My house is so dark that I cannot see across the room. I cannot turn on the lights because I will blind myself. I move across the room towards the door. Where is my wife? Is she still sleeping or screaming at me, "What was that!!!???" or "What's going on!!!???" If I have children, they are propably asleep because they sleep through anything, but what if the noise startled them and they are up moving about the house now? I move towards the door and have to make a decision to open it or not. If I open it what or who is on the other side. The rest of the house is too dark to see anything as well . My head is ready to explode at that point. Decisions, decisions, decisions. Yes, if I have had training and am proficient and if I see someone in the house they'll get two to the body and one to the head. But how are you going to recognize your spouse, your teenager, her boyfriend that snuck in or a bad guy in the dark? Reality says I won't be able to distinguish very well. It isn't going to happen that way, for me at least and here's why...

I have practiced with my firearm in all types of situations. I have practiced so much that it becomes an automatic reaction. But one thing I can never train for is being awakened from a deep sleep and getting into combat mode instantly, unless I hire someone like Kato in the Pink Panther movies to attack me over and over again when I least expect it.

I think a better choice for me would be to practice often with my gun so that I am proficient. Then when I hear a loud noise in the middle of the night I will reach for the panic button on the alarm system that sits next to my headboard and trigger the very loud alarm system that also flashes all the lights in the house off and on except for the ones in the bedrooms so I am not blinded. I am very confident that at that point in time, unless they were there specifically to hurt me and not rob me, the bad guy would run out exactly the way they came in. While they are running out the broken down door, I would unlock the gun safe, draw my weapon and call 911 on the cell phone. I haven't left my bedroom and the alarm has already sounded, the threat is leaving, the lights inside and outside the house are flashing, an alarm is blaring inside and outside, the police have been called and I am armed just in case I'm wrong. At that point, I can open the door, gather the kids back into the bedroom and whine on the phone to the armed government agents until they arrive. Then, they can take down the information, maybe some fingerprints off the door, pat my kids on the head and make them glad to see the police instead of fearing them. I'll thank them and probably make a donation to their organization the next day.

What works for some folks will not work for others. I really, truly hope none of us ever have to go through these things that we are discussing here. My best wishes to all of you here at TBN. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Bird · Jun 25, 2004

Very good, David, and I agree. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif And even though I've had more training than most, I haven't practiced since I retired, my hearing has deteriorated until a noise probably wouldn't wake me until my wife punched me, and then I'd wonder what was going on, and since I've never needed my guns for protection, I probably wouldn't even think about the fact that I have a loaded weapon nearby. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Chuck52 · Jun 25, 2004

Egad. Common sense. I think I'm gonna faint.

Chuck

Yankee · Jun 25, 2004

"The mention of the "double tap" to me at least, brings two thoughts... "
"1. someone who has combat shooting training(such as police officers, competitive shooters and others with advanced handgun training),"
"OR"
"2. someone who wants to express their machismo, has watched too many movies and lives in a fantasy world."

I believe I first brought it up in this thread. I was NRA trained and certified as a personal defense instructor and taught for a while. I've since let my certificate lapse.

Keeping things as simple as possible, the heart of non-professional, defensive live fire training focuses on very short range shooting, a two-handed grip, the handgun being raised from a lowered position, instinctive pointing at the center of mass while focusing on the "person" (i.e., no aiming) and firing two quick (though not rushed) shots in succession - the double tap.

For most people, it's the only training they get. For those, a simple demonstration, with them firing the gun, shows the value of pointing over aiming, and the value of limiting firing (beyond legalities) to two measured, quick shots. They tend to be less accurate trying to aim as well as experiencing the time it takes, and tend to string badly or even start to lose control trying to fire more than two shots. (Some instructors use guns without sights to train.) The subtleties of sights, competition-type aiming, alternate grips, etc. are completely lost on them.

"Double tap" is standard terminology - no movies or machismo involved. Although you and others may think of the term in a pseudo-military or police jargon sense, to me it's aural. In fact, I demonstrate the timing of the two shots by rapping on the tabletop or firing range counter when explaining it, also explaining that that is akin to what the shots are going to sound like through the hearing protectors. "Tap Tap". The barrier the instructor is trying to overcome is fear of the gun, excessive flinching, closing the eyes, etc. and (usually starting with a .22) it does indeed sound like tapping.

Bill

MossRoad · Jun 25, 2004

Bird, do you remember my tornado story? The one where I awoke from a deep sleep and saved my family from certain death by dragging them to the basement before the house exploded. That's the way I function when awakened suddenly by loud noises. No time to think, just time to act. I think it clearly illustrates what can happen to some people in a panic situation where you believe your family is in danger. For those of you that never read my tornado story here's a link to it. I learned an important lesson about myself that night. It only applies to me and no one else here at TBN, as we are all different. I learned that I have an instinct to protect my family which overrides all common sense and rationallity. When awakened from a dead sleep into a panic situation, I am on autopilot until brought to my senses. As my wife has told me on several occasions, I have the strength of 10 men at those times. Wish I had the common sense of at least one of them. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

mundamanu · Jun 25, 2004

Oh man, I just read the tornado story. That is hilarious!

Reading that story reminded me of the story my parents tell about how my father once woke from a deep sleep to see an intruder hovering over the bed he and my mother were sleeping in. Immediately the same instinct to protect the family that you mentioned kicked in and my father dove across the bed and grabbed the intruder and began wrestling with him, becoming locked in a desperate fight for all of our lives. My mother was torn from her sleep because of the attack. A moment later, she started screaming....."Bob! [my father] Bob! What are you doing, stop it!!! You're hurting me!" My father, hearing a distant call through the intensity of the fight stopped wrestling the man and looked him in the face. He was staring at my mother's thigh. /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif For some reason, while deeply asleep, my mother had stuck her leg straight up in the air. Upon waking my father saw the silhouette of her leg, interpreted it as an intruder, and pounced! /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif Kudos to the old man for his bravery, though. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif