witch concrete for balist box

[ducati996]

I dont know if the manual said or not. I trust yall more than JD specs.
Thanks for the info kenny. I will get some portland. and filler up.....

wonder how many bags of portland it would take to fill a JD balist box to the top?

I bought 8 and I think I only used 6....just in case, you can return them but it would stink if you didnt have enough, and then had to get more while you were filling it

 

[Nuru]

Gee what a brute strength lookin pic Chris!

 

[Phunge]

You missed the point again

I think i've got your point. The 2520 in use seems to be far more capable than the Deere specs state, and in practical use over the 2320. Particularly in this case the stated loader max lift capacity. In your opinion, the Deere specs are incorrectly stated.

Lets also agree that the 2520 is one heck of a capable tractor, and the larger engine and hydraulic pump make the tractor shine in comparison to the 2320.

Here's where we disagree: My opinion is that the apparent increased lift capacity does not necessarily mean that the Deere specifications for loader max lift capacity are incorrect. Perhaps there is some factor other than raw hydraulic strength, such as the front axle capacity, that explains the apparent disconnect between stated and actual lift capacity.

they arent basically the same. That includes engine, axle (front and especially the rear), hydrolics, wheels and alot more (where does the extra weight come from? the longer wheelbase?).

Keep in mind I did say basically the same, not exactly the same. Lets dispense with the generalities though, and talk specifics. A quick check on john deere parts seems to indicate that the front axle housing for the 2320 and 2520 share all the same part numbers. Do you know for sure if the front axles are different? ('cause I do not and could be wrong in assuming the same part numbers means they're the same)

Assuming I'm correct, however, and:
1. the max load capacity rating from deere is limited by the the front axle capacity
2. The front axles are the same on both tractors
3. The front axle capacity listed by Deere is:
2320: 1940
2520: 1940
4. The stated capacity by deere for the 200CX loader at 59in, 500mm ahead of the pivot point is:
2320: 1129
2520: 1124

Then my guess is that the 2520 is actually slightly less capable than the 2320 because the axle is the same, but the weight of the tractor is more, leaving less capacity for the load. Even though the increased hydraulics allow it lift more, the axle is being overloaded beyond it's rated specification.

Lets be clear -- this is only a guess. I certainly did not design the tractor, or any of it's components. Nor am I privy to any information other than what has been published by Deere.

Deeres specifications are loaded with to many Typo's to be credible. I mentioned this and pointed out the specification errors repeatedly.

I do recall the thread where we discussed this. I do agree that Deere publishes specifications with errors (the sales manual I have definitely does not match what is published on the website).

Besides I have to ask - arent you still shopping? wasnt it recently you were looking at box store units and decided to look at other larger machines? While I appreciate you words of caution, I like to count on my own years of experience and of owning different models (specifically those in question) to draw my own conclusions and factor in any safety margins that might be required.

Correct. I am only offering an opinion based on the research I have done. Feel free to discredit me. I'll be the first to admit that I have not owned either tractor, and you certainly have. I'll also say that I appreciate the benefit of your experience and participation in this forum, and it has helped me in my decision making process.

Now lets say the deere specs are correct, they now have an issue of every single 2520 being more capable than specified out of the factory - How long do you think Deere would allow that, since they would be liable in many ways - either warranty repair or possible injury because something failed? These machines have been available for 2 years now (maybe more), and all the machines are this way with no changes forthcoming. My .02 cents

I'm not sure what you're saying here. Why would Deere be liable if a customer lifted more than the stated max capacity?

------------------------------------------------------------------------


I understand that the specification is a guidline only. Certainly, one could occasionally exceed the stated capacity under the right conditions and cause no harm to the tractor or ones self.

I myself would have done exactly as Chris did, and lifted it because it needed lifting, and the tractor could do it.

If someone needed to routinely exceed the stated specifications, however, then contrary to what you guys are recommending, it is my personal opinion that it would be better to buy a bigger machine, rather than trust in conjecture that the deere specifications are suspect.

 

[Chris2520]

Wow , Duc really pushed your buttons. didn't he.....
as for the front Axal . it is a big nasty chunk of cast iron.
I asure you it will hold much more than 1940. I see this is turning into the same.old same old 2320 2520 discussion. and that was not my intentions.
a was mearly showing the 2520 owners the capability of there machine. and how impressed i was , what is could really do.
and that it far out specs the Deere specs of the machine. a 2320 is a wonderful tractor of its size. most likely the best on the market. and yes the 2520 is far superior to it in power weight , lift and size. and it should be . not because i own one. because it is a more powerful comercial style machine. that is more expencive. i am not going to compair mine to a 3520 cause it is a more powerful larger machine. that costs more. it dont make one better than the other. just size difference. it just seems because of deeres misrepresentation. folks think a 2520 is nothing more than a 2320 with bigger tires. and thats not the case at all. there not even close. Now you go play in the dirt with both machines for a couple of hours. ( I Did ) and then you come back and talk to me. and we wont be haveing this discussion anymore.
and you will say , OH now i see what your saying.....

Dang. All i wanted to know was about some concrete.....
and Kenny got me strated out on that. i will get me some portland cement
and i will be set....

 

[ducati996]

I think i've got your point. The 2520 in use seems to be far more capable than the Deere specs state, and in practical use over the 2320. Particularly in this case the stated loader max lift capacity. In your opinion, the Deere specs are incorrectly stated.

Lets also agree that the 2520 is one heck of a capable tractor, and the larger engine and hydraulic pump make the tractor shine in comparison to the 2320.

Here's where we disagree: My opinion is that the apparent increased lift capacity does not necessarily mean that the Deere specifications for loader max lift capacity are incorrect. Perhaps there is some factor other than raw hydraulic strength, such as the front axle capacity, that explains the apparent disconnect between stated and actual lift capacity.



Keep in mind I did say basically the same, not exactly the same. Lets dispense with the generalities though, and talk specifics. A quick check on john deere parts seems to indicate that the front axle housing for the 2320 and 2520 share all the same part numbers. Do you know for sure if the front axles are different? ('cause I do not and could be wrong in assuming the same part numbers means they're the same)

Assuming I'm correct, however, and:
1. the max load capacity rating from deere is limited by the the front axle capacity
2. The front axles are the same on both tractors
3. The front axle capacity listed by Deere is:
2320: 1940
2520: 1940
4. The stated capacity by deere for the 200CX loader at 59in, 500mm ahead of the pivot point is:
2320: 1129
2520: 1124

Then my guess is that the 2520 is actually slightly less capable than the 2320 because the axle is the same, but the weight of the tractor is more, leaving less capacity for the load. Even though the increased hydraulics allow it lift more, the axle is being overloaded beyond it's rated specification.

Lets be clear -- this is only a guess. I certainly did not design the tractor, or any of it's components. Nor am I privy to any information other than what has been published by Deere.


I'm not sure what you're saying here. Why would Deere be liable if a customer lifted more than the stated max capacity?

Of course if you read into the specifications more than it needs to then you can come up with all types of scenerios. For example just a 5 lbs difference between the two units with the same axle and loader?, but the height some how the 2320 lifts higher than the 2520 by .5 inch? cant see that happening since the 2520 is taller. Thats just 1 example - many others in the 200cx spec
You most likely are correct with the front axle being the same, however the rear housing is different along with the rear tires. The frame is longer, and the machine is heavier - what components that contribute to these need to be defined.
Overall this was not meant to be a bash on the 2320 - but unfortunately it turns into it in order for the two machines to be clearly definied in their design and rolls. This should have been done by Deere from the get go, not the owners and there lies my fustration and pointed criticism. If they did a better job at least on paper, they can clearly go after the likes of the 2520 biggest competition - Kubota and the B2630/B3030 series and truly show they are an equal (if not more capable) then those machines.

As for liability I mentioned it earlier - increase of warranty repairs, or unsafe operating loads - can and usually do far back towards the mfg being responsible. Now if the machine can handle it then no worries correct? The Mfg. hasnt responded in kind since its introduction, so therefore I would say they are comfortable with the design.

Duc

 

[JDCAN]

Phunge I think you made some excellent points. While others might want to overlook it and discredit those points, I must say I agree with Phunge.

If the front axle is only rated for 1900 lbs or whatever for the 2320 and the 2520 uses the same axle, regardless if people are lifting 3000 lbs. 5000lbs or 10 000 lbs. if the axle is only rated for 1900 lbs, regardless if the machine can lift over the 1900lbs it can't be good long term. The extra power and hydro pump can only make lifting up to 1900 much easier and more efficient than a lesser model. The extra lift and power can't compensate for the weaker axle. While 2520Chris may not have any problems with that lift that is not to say it was not bad on the front axle. I think John Deere understands that axle is only good for so much weight maybe that is why they posted the other lifting spec's etc. lower to not confuse users. Even though we can all see it clearly lifts more. The fact still remains the same if the axle is not designed to lift more why bother posting the better lift numbers? All this will do is make consumers think it is ok to lift more.

So John Deere is suppose to print the 2520 can lift 3500 lbs but due to the front axle only good for 1920 you can only lift 1920? Can you imagine the confusion?

It is like car tires; sure some cars go over 150 mph but what if you have crappy tires rated for 110mph? Do you want to push the limited and still go150mph? Probably not, but with that said even though the car can hit 150mph would it be wrong to warn users not to exceed 110 mph with the rating of the tires? On the flip side if the tires are rated for 110mph and you go 130mph does that mean they will blow first time? Probably not but you are playing with fire, much like the front axle , sure you can go over 2000 lbs probably without much issue, but if the thing breaks you are going to be in a world of trouble for repairs and costs. And when you bring it back to Mr John Deere and he determines you exceeded the front axle load by 1000lbs, guess what? Even with that nice factory warranty they will not be responsible, they clearly outlined the load and if you the user want to exceed that, do so at your own risk. Mr John Deere will not be paying for the warranty repair.

With all that said I think Phunge offered some really great points to think about, while some users want to push and exceed the limits I don't think it's fair to come on here and pump those limits as the holy grail and John Deere is messed up for posting wrong information. Everyone is entitled to operate the machines the way they want but I don't think it's a good idea to come in here to promote pushing the boundaries on these things. Promote safety is the better thing to do.

In closing, no need to call out any members in here for not buying of having/owning the tractor yet. What was the point of that? Was it a way to try to disprove the good information that Phunge posted? I don't think that was fair or needed. I never noticed any requirements when I joined saying I needed to own and operate a machine before i could join the conversation. Let's be fair and polite to every user on the forum. And more importantly lets promote safety.

Chris2520 very extreme here but how would you feel if you told everyone here to screw JD specs and go lifting to 3000 lbs. a user takes your advice and has a terrible accident or even death due to pushing those limits and going on your advice you posted here, would you not feel completely terrible? You sound like a nice guy so I am sure you would. With that said there is nothing to gain by promoting the unsafe use of tractors on these forums. It is better to allow John Deere and co. to post the specs the way they see fit.

Let's all just agree to disagree. And Phunge thanks for making the post, I feel it was a good thing to look at. Especially for me since I plan to be doing fork lift work on my tractor.

Enjoy everyone and keep the rubber side down

 

[ducati996]

JDcan,

I dont recall discrediting Phunge points of contention or promoting abuse or inflating the capabilites of a particular machine. Lets Deal with what we know - the specs are inaccurate, and Deere has a repeat history of manual and specification errors (I think you already concured with this in earlier posts/threads?). So where do we base whats now exceeding the capabilities if the information is probably incorrect to begin with? - I appreciate the express concern and words of caution expressed here. Everybody can express their opinion as they choose or see fit - it is however more credible when at least ownership or familarity (daily use) of the said machines comes into play IMO. Sorry that you dont like this statement - but in the end experience speaks volumes and loudest. Just like I wouldnt sit on a Kubota forum, or NH or any larger JD machine and offer advice like I had experience with them. Unless I actually did - . If you or Phunge feel Im calling you guys out, im sorry that you feel that way but I tend to see things exactly as they are. You guys were just asking basic questions a few posts ago - now you are preaching safety and telling others on what they should or shouldnt be doing with their machines. I find that a little bit putting the cart before the horse.
Your examples of cars reaching a set speed and what ever that is its now governed by the ECM - rev limiters by the factory (case in point BMW & mercedes limit things at about 150-155 MPH). Tires are matched accordingly and im only talking about new vehicles in this discussion. Same thing with pressure relief valves. Pre-set limitations design to prevent damage or injury.
Overall there has not been a single incident of a axle breaking (snapping) from being overloaded on any of the Yanmar machines built for Deere - this includes 2210,4010,4100,4110,4115,2320,2520. 3 of those models I have owned personally - of course it dosent make me an expert, but it sure gives me some operational guidelines which myself and many others feel comfortable with.

Regards

Duc

 

[JDCAN]

JDcan,

I dont recall discrediting Phunge points of contention or promoting abuse or inflating the capabilites of a particular machine. Lets Deal with what we know - the specs are inaccurate, and Deere has a repeat history of manual and specification errors (I think you already concured with this in earlier posts/threads?). So where do we base whats now exceeding the capabilities if the information is probably incorrect to begin with? - I appreciate the express concern and words of caution expressed here. Everybody can express their opinion as they choose or see fit - it is however more credible when at least ownership or familarity (daily use) of the said machines comes into play IMO. Sorry that you dont like this statement - but in the end experience speaks volumes and loudest. Just like I wouldnt sit on a Kubota forum, or NH or any larger JD machine and offer advice like I had experience with them. Unless I actually did - . If you or Phunge feel Im calling you guys out, im sorry that you feel that way but I tend to see things exactly as they are. You guys were just asking basic questions a few posts ago - now you are preaching safety and telling others on what they should or shouldnt be doing with their machines. I find that a little bit putting the cart before the horse.
Your examples of cars reaching a set speed and what ever that is its now governed by the ECM - rev limiters by the factory (case in point BMW & mercedes limit things at about 150-155 MPH). Tires are matched accordingly and im only talking about new vehicles in this discussion. Same thing with pressure relief valves. Pre-set limitations design to prevent damage or injury.
Overall there has not been a single incident of a axle breaking (snapping) from being overloaded on any of the Yanmar machines built for Deere - this includes 2210,4010,4100,4110,4115,2320,2520. 3 of those models I have owned personally - of course it dosent make me an expert, but it sure gives me some operational guidelines which myself and many others feel comfortable with.

Regards

Duc

Ducat996 no where did I stat I was an expert. Actually I have very openly admitted I am a newbie and don't know much about tractors, probably explains the reason I joined this forum to learn more. Once again no where does it state you need to own a tractor to join the conversation? To be honest by the looks of things it seems more new buyers are joining these forums than people that own the machines. Ducat996 it is clear you are very wise when it comes to tractors I just felt Phunge offered some great solid information with allot of technical information to back it, and you just came back with "Do you even own one? Since you are so much more advance than us simpletons could you not offer better experience to discredit phunge vs saying " Hey you don’t' even own one"

Duc996 I have no idea why you feel you called me out?? I was not part of the post until my last comment, well after you seemed to call out Phunge. Actually my first post I sort of called you out for trying to shut Phunge down. So once again I don't understand your comment about you calling me out. This is a public forum no need for any call outs. Enjoy and let allows around you enjoy

In regards to safety, I am sorry I feel you are way off, you don't need to be an expert to understand and realize the importance of safety. No where in my post did I tell anyone how to use their machine, I just suggested promoting unsafe use and exceeding factory limits is hardly a smart or positive thing to add. Re-read my post, it is clear I stated everyone in entitled to running the machines the way they see fit.

While I think the personal experience you have on a machine is very valuable to this forum, but no way do I feel your views trump everyone else’s including John Deere. You have honestly offered nothing to suggest the front axle is capable of holding more. Ducati I am not looking to start any beefs with you I PERSONALLY feel safety should override anything and be the most important thing to consider. Even one day when I become master Tractor operator of the universe like you, I will still feel the same way about safety. It hardly takes an expert to understand and have concerns towards safety. Once again read over the posts , you guys are just saying "WELL SINCE I CAN LIFT A MILLION LBS AND DO THIS AND THAT SCREW JOHN DEERE THEY ARE CLUELESS AND HAVE NO IDEA ABOUT THE SPECS THEY PROVIDING" While it's clear the machines can step outside the John Deere Speced Boundaries , you nor I can honestly say what the full limits are, with that said I don't think it's a bad thing to follow the specs.

Ducat996 let me ask you something, since the John Deere specs are way off and wrong, what harm or problems do you feel will happen is users follow John Deere Specs? Do you see any major issues with that?

Once again Duca996 bounce your tractor up and down like the video chris2520 posted, do what works for you m8, but no need to get salty on others for giving different views. Once again we are not all tractor internet lords like you, but regardless we are here to learn and I feel allowing others to add is what makes this place great. And again yes I feel safety first everything second.

Keep the rubber side down

P.s - Please disregard the terrible spelling and grammar

 

[ducati996]

Ducat996 no where did I stat I was an expert. Actually I have very openly admitted I am a newbie and don't know much about tractors

P.s - Please disregard the terrible spelling and grammar

with that said, I disregarded the entire post - I rather not debate this subject any longer.
Its the OP's thread - back to the subject of ballast

Duc

 

[SFish]

Good grief. Any company that made a tractor that broke, or was dangerous with a maximum straight hydraulic lift and move would go out of business, and if they are not falling apart all over the place they are designed to do what they can do. Manufacturers know that we operators rarely know what something we are working with weighs. That is what hydraulic relief valves are for. I max out my loader almost every time I use it when digging and moving dirt with the loader because I can't know what compaction or roots or whatever is resisting the lift. If I use the loader for routine stuff and occasionally lift something very heavy the wheel bearings will last longer than if I lift the max every time I use it. If I beat my tractor it will wear out sooner, but if it gets the job done it would be worth it.

Specifications come from a variety of factors that may have nothing to do with the real world, and safety factors are often several times the listed specs. Further, there are a lot of competing internal agencies in any large company, the worst of which, in my opinion, is marketing. For example, if a tractors specs are too close to the next more expensive model, on which there is a larger profit, marketing may scale them down in the literature.

As for ballast, I would never get a ballast box. This is not because they are not necessary, but that I would rather spend my money on another implement to balance the tractor and gain usefulness. You can always hang some home made concrete blocks on a box blade or mower. The least expensive is a 3 point fork setup. You can put weight on this for balance, or a box to make the tractor into a little pickup truck for hauling or carrying tools, or lift the edge of that old garden shed to fix the foundation.

Steve