Wood Burning Insurance Policy

[lampmfg]

Good point on your part. Alot of "efficiencies" to look at but never stated in layman terms. Going by your interpretation of that verbiage, the ash that is left over is the other 1%? How then is that 99% versus the missing 1% interpreted? Do they weigh it and say that minus the moisture, the weight of firewood used was 100 lbs and the ash weighed 1 lb? I always expected a fire to consume everything it could and the rest was ash. Is this woodboiler a new concept to that age old fact? Actually in that ash is also heat retention.
I, in no way am a scientist or able to contest the manufacturers claims. However, if you want to sell a product - then compare it to your competition before I'll be impressed or convinced to buy. Rhetoric is for the judicial system - just give me something to compare it to. I have no argument with your interpretation however.

Gary

I'm trying to compare it. This is the best I have because I'm also not aware of any manufactures who actually post their actual test results online for everyone to see like we have on our website (most just try and say efficient without any proof like my car gets great gas mileage until I buy it and it actually doesn't). We have documented proof...
I saw a PGS Caddy EPA forced air furnace (probably the next best we have seen) manual on their website and it has the following:

Average emissions rate: 6.56 g/hr
Average heating efficiency: 71.43%

Compare that with ours:

.45 Gr/Hr. Emmission
99.4% Combustion Efficiency
99% Smokeless Burns
84% Overall Efficiency


Any particular reason you are not EPA certified?
Here is where many people are very confused. Right now under Phase I there is not even a standard set yet for Indoor Forced Air Wood Furnaces in the U.S., and from talking to a few insiders with knowledge in the area Phase II (tougher standard) EPA certification probably won't be required until 2014. Also it probably won't be an efficiency testing but rather an emissions test, because if your emissions are low your efficiency will be good. We hear it will probably require less than 5 grams of emissions per hour because if it goes any lower than that the majority of companies won't have the means, time, or ability to adhere and be forced to quit manufacturing their furnaces and in turn put them out of business. The Vapor Fire furnace line has been my career project for the past 30 years which includes thousands upon thousands of test burns and many design changes. With endless and I do mean endless work hours we were able to achieve less than 1 gram of emissions per hour which is unheard of.

Here is how we began our certification/testing process. In 2009 the opportunity evolved to offer the tax credit with efficiency certification so we decided to take use Intertek (Who runs 3 of the 7 approved efficiency testing sites in the country) and it's testing facility in Madison, WI. Once we received the great efficiency results we were asked if we would also like to have the emissions tested so we would have the information ahead of time for any changes that we would need to make or potential advertising we would like to do. Being a smaller company with limited means this was not an easy decision to make, because the cost is substantial. However we knew that in order to survive and reach our goal of manufacturing the most efficient indoor wood furnace in the world and a truly green product we needed documented proof. This documented proof is located on our website where a PDF of the test results can be found.

Rest assured that when the opportunity becomes available for Phase II EPA certification we will be first in line. On a side note we have received recent calls from some of our competitors many of which, will have a lot of work to do by 2014, inquiring about the emissions testing process that we underwent.

 

[MossRoad]

YOu kind of answered my question. But we only compared whole house central wood heat systems. Yours looks good yes, the numbers seem great.

Most of us heating with wood use a Wood stove and are just accustomed to the uneven heat they produce. I like my bedroom in the 60s and my family room warmer, which a stove does. unless hooked up to some super expensive central system you cant do this. I guess what i was saying is that i can buy an englander 30 stove at Lowes for $1000 that is 100% us made as well and then several hundred more on a chimney and i can heat a 2000 sq ft home easy on way less thay 7cords a year. Yea you need to feed it more but in my eyes this is more effecient. I also do not live in a super cold climate though. My house lacks all but r19 ceiling insulation so it in effect is like my house is in a climite colder than i am due to the loss of heat so fast. More like a house several hundred miles north of me with better insulation, is what mine probly represents.

And yes if i was buying 1000gallons of fuel oil a year if would be a no brainer, but im not and never will or was. I have heat pumps and my worst bills were not even $200month over what they were with no heat or air running when i used the Heat. My point is that i am heating up to 2500sqft with my woodstove insert. At my current heating cost with my other heat it would take me (using an avg of $100month for 3 months and $50 month for 2 other months for the winter) 12.5 years to recover the initial cost of the unit and thats ignoring interest , not like you can earn it anywhere now anyway. This is fairly high numbers i feel as well to use for each month. This also does not consider that i will have to at least double if not triple my wood pile and gathering activities. I do not live on my land so i have to cut wood on public land near my home. This will increase my time as well as the fuel associated with getting the wood, making the pay off that much more.


I am kind of knocking you i guess but really am interested in them as i considered them in the future, but after seeing your numbers it seems like it would not be a wise financial decesion for me or anyone who lives in my area. I mean a 12+ year payback plus haveing to at least double the wood i burn just im my mind does not make sense. And that 12 year pay back is assuming that i was using my heatpump currenty. As of right now heating with my stove i have not turned them on this heating season, so at this current rate of consumption it would NEVER pay off.


This is just my opinion and i hope it helps those who may be thinking of one and are in a similar situation as me.

Also to the guy considering one, who said you load a stove every 4 hours. You need to get a more effecient wood stove. I usually load mine every 12 hours and in all but the coldest weather this provides continuous heat and enough coals that when i reload the wood just starts burning right away. In the coldest weather it may be reduced back to 9-10 hours reload time. This usuall equates to a 10 hour over night burn load up in the mourning and throwing a few peices on when i get home from work 9-10 hours later and letting it rip till there coals to get quick heat in family room then reloading before bed (this would be continuous nights with temps in the mid to low 20s).

Contrarily, living in Northern Indiana near lake Michigan, the past two seasons I burned 6 cords of wood each winter. I lit the stove on October 1st and it only went out 4 times by the end of March. For all intents and purposes, it was a 6 month continuous burn! I saved about $1800.00 on my natural gas bills in that two years. I have about $3K into my system, so I am looking at a 4 year payback (if you don't count my time and cost of gathering firewood).

This year, however, has been quite mild. It is the first year I have never gone ice fishing. Couple the mild weather with dropping natural gas prices and I am not saving very much at all this year. I have only burned about 3.5 cords and estimate I will need only about 1/2 a cord more to get through March.

There are just plain a LOT of variables to consider when estimating the payback time. Mild/Extreme winters. Humidity. Type of fire wood. Prices of fossil fuel fluctuations, etc....

I think the best feeling I get is knowing that I can heat the house on wood and not rely on having to purchase fossil fuel from anyone. I own the woodlot. Might as well be an oil well for us! :thumbsup:

 

[Clyde]

Garrett, you have done an exceptional job in answering what you have to offer, however you have also steered in every direction except answer my statements about stainless steel as a heat conductor, your dealer network and parts support. Central Boiler was one that ever consulted you for answers and that I know as I have checked. It always pays to have friends in the right places. Answer my questions as up to now you are blowing unacceptable smoke in the wrong direction!

 

[Clyde]

Garrett - Since your woodburners are all for garage or basement installation, your nomenclature upon opening this thread is false. I checked with 4 major insurance companies that serve my area or I should say - they have agents that sell their insurance in my area. One major company will not cover indoor installation woodboilers - period! Two out of the other 3 require you to pay extra for that addon and to your benefit, the other state located insurance doesn't care but they don't offer car, outbuildings, nor equipment such as farm equipment falling thru the ice. The other 3 do that and at no additional fees from me. Falling thru the ice is an issue in Wisc - trust me! Garrett, I'm not knocking you intentionally but your facts can appear misleading to the common person. Your "facts" are right from the EPA certification tests. If I were a customer and asked you what your facts really meant, what would you tell him? 30 years in the business with 10 employees tells me you aren't quite there yet.

Respectfully - Gary

 

[Clyde]

Garrett - I promise you - just one more. Your "claim to fame" that you make in your advertisement on top of this forum -"The Wolrld #1 woodburning furnace in the world".
I've been told by other posters to "read between the line", or ask if I even really read what the poster has to say. What in the heck is your basis for that statement? Just how many of your woodburners have you sent abroad? I truly doubt that with 10 employees you are supplying too much of anything. I come to this site for facts and answers and none of this horsecrap, let alone filling a site with worthless minutia that does not have a basis or you refuse to substantiate when challenged

 

[lampmfg]

Garrett, you have done an exceptional job in answering what you have to offer, however you have also steered in every direction except answer my statements about stainless steel as a heat conductor, your dealer network and parts support. Central Boiler was one that ever consulted you for answers and that I know as I have checked. It always pays to have friends in the right places. Answer my questions as up to now you are blowing unacceptable smoke in the wrong direction!

Definitely not trying to mislead you... We don't have dealers and only ship factory direct. My dad the owner and designer of our furnace line worked together with a gentleman and came up with our computer design. We ship the computers that malfunction to him and he normally charges us $40 to fix them. Which we in turn charge the exact same amount to the customer plus $15-$20 shipping. I'm not sure what is the most common type of error with the computer but it isn't something common. Like I said 5 repairs per year out of nearly 1,000 furnaces is a pretty good ratio that I wish I could get on most of the things I purchase after warranty.

I'm not sure what you are talking about with the stainless steel? Our design works great and we have proven results. If your really interested watch the videos on our website and you will learn what separates our furnaces and see why our design works.

What do you mean by this? Central Boiler was one that ever consulted you for answers and that I know as I have checked.

Some places have different insurance codes, but if you are allowed to have a wood furnace you definitely would be allowed to have ours. We have owners all over the country and even in Montana where they have some tough burning restrictions. Clyde there are over 300 furnaces in WI alone which is the most out of any state.

I agree that we are definitely not there yet as a company but 5 years ago we only had 2-3 employees so were going in the right direction. I'm proud that we are small manufacturer making it in the US... During a bad economy we sold more furnaces in the past two years than the previous 10 combined.

My dad (Daryl Lamppa) can provide much better answers then myself so feel free to call him directly at the shop. I help him remotely with bookwork, marketing, e-mails, website, and video creation as a second job. I also manage the Hotel at Fortune Bay Resort Casino on Lake Vermilion if anyone is ever up in the area. He couldn't even get on the Internet without my mom's help at home, but I know how hard he has worked to design this furnace and remember him testing it till late hours every night 20 years ago when I was a kid. It took along time to get this right and go through the intricate testing for proof.

I welcome anyone to ask our competitors about their overall efficiency and emissions... See what they tell you and then ask for proof like we provide!!

 

[lampmfg]

Garrett - I promise you - just one more. Your "claim to fame" that you make in your advertisement on top of this forum -"The Wolrld #1 woodburning furnace in the world".
I've been told by other posters to "read between the line", or ask if I even really read what the poster has to say. What in the heck is your basis for that statement? Just how many of your woodburners have you sent abroad? I truly doubt that with 10 employees you are supplying too much of anything. I come to this site for facts and answers and none of this horsecrap, let alone filling a site with worthless minutia that does not have a basis or you refuse to substantiate when challenged

Well Clyde you seem like a smart guy so find a better indoor wood burning furnace. I'll be waiting for your answer, but I want proof like we provide (FACTS)... Cleaner burning and actual efficiency #'s from an independent testing facility. We used Intertek and they are one of only a hand full of certified facilities in the US. Look at the pictures on our website of the VaporFire hooked up for the testing, because this process is no joke.

Otherwise don't you think our competitors would be able to dispute our so called claim to fame everywhere, because it's on all of our advertising? Did you read the other threads that I posted or are you just blowing smoke? In one of the threads on Arborsite last year I told Yukon Eagle to undergo the testing process and if they got better #'s we would pay for their testing. Our catch was if they didn't we got to use their number's side by side with ours on advertisements. Granted we have seen their design and know that it's not possible with they way it currently is made, but still that's pretty ballsy. Watch our vidoes and see if you don't think my dad knows what he's talking about. I would put his furnace wood burning knowledge up there with pretty much anyone, because it's all he's ever done and he's now 62.

 

[clemsonfor]

Good point on your part. Alot of "efficiencies" to look at but never stated in layman terms. Going by your interpretation of that verbiage, the ash that is left over is the other 1%? How then is that 99% versus the missing 1% interpreted? Do they weigh it and say that minus the moisture, the weight of firewood used was 100 lbs and the ash weighed 1 lb? I always expected a fire to consume everything it could and the rest was ash. Is this woodboiler a new concept to that age old fact? Actually in that ash is also heat retention.
I, in no way am a scientist or able to contest the manufacturers claims. However, if you want to sell a product - then compare it to your competition before I'll be impressed or convinced to buy. Rhetoric is for the judicial system - just give me something to compare it to. I have no argument with your interpretation however.

Gary

I think that maybe 1% will still be charcoal after a burn???

 

[lampmfg]

I just got off the phone with my dad and will try to relay his answers to a couple of questions.

Here's how it was explained to him when we underwent the testing at Intertek. Of the available BTU's in each piece of wood we actually combust 99% of the heat energy, however we aren't extracting all of those BTU's because our efficiency is between 80-85%. We need to have some heat going up the flue to a maintain a natural draft.

The stainless steel is in the firebox just to hold the brick in place and to protect the ceiling. We don't want it to conduct the heat. We want the heat to stay in the firebox until it's extracted after it's burned clean. The proof is our low internal flue temperatures of 300 degrees F.

He told me the computer error that's happened a few times is a resistor band, which is easy to fix for us.

When you ask the insurance companies remember this is an indoor wood gasification furnace not a boiler...

He told me much more but I couldn't write it fast enough so if you want better detailed answers give him a call during business hours 1-800-358-2049.

 

[Clyde]

Well Clyde you seem like a smart guy so find a better indoor wood burning furnace. I'll be waiting for your answer, but I want proof like we provide (FACTS)... Cleaner burning and actual efficiency #'s from an independent testing facility. We used Intertek and they are one of only a hand full of certified facilities in the US. Look at the pictures on our website of the VaporFire hooked up for the testing, because this process is no joke.

Garrett - you have stood your ground to my persecutions but still some items I posted are still unanswered such as what basis do you place your company as #1 wood furnace? My statement in regards to Central Boiler ever consulting you in regards to a clue to your certification "ever" was a typo error on my part and meant to be "never". As per your request to find a better indoor woodburner, I never looked. I, myself only, would never consider an indoor addon to my existing furnace. Please excuse the following term but your product only produces hot air. Whereas a woodboiler provides hot water that also heats my home, my domestic hot water, my hydronic infloor heating for the basement floor, my unattached workshop and a 4 stall garage and hottub. At what price you may ask - because this was an exceptionally warm winter for all of us, I won't even use that in my average, over the 3 years prior when we had traditional winters - I averaged 12 cord per year. No thermostat is ever set at less than 70 degrees. I no longer have to listen to the insurance company trying to charge me more because of it either. Even a woodburning fireplace is starting to raise eyebrows with them and they look at woodburners in-house much the same way. Where ever human intervention is involved becomes their concern. With a fireplace, you and I both are aware of a log rolling out and starting a fire or a stray ember making it thru the screen to do the same. With a woodburner indoors, their concern is the rare occasion of a blast back of unburned gas igniting and roaring out the door and injuring the owner. If you can tell me none of your customers never, ever had that happen to you or them, we can address that later.

Only from what you advertise, write in this forum, is what I have to depend on. It appears that you build an excellent product, certified by the proper agency, and at an extremely affordable price for those that are looking for your application.

That being said on my part - can we at least agree to disagree? I sincerely wish you the best with your endeavors and look forward to your future posts.