Worried about Jobs

[JATO_RaT]

DFB, read your post and have but one comment. We are at just about about the lowest UNemployment in history. If we are shipping ALL the jobs to Mexico etc. then how can we have both? France has unemployment close to 16%, the rest of Europe is close behind. Protectionism there is very high, yet they have few new job openings. Here in California, help wanted signs still flourish. There have even been companies close plants in Mexico because qualified help is simply unavailable. The same is quasi true here in California where the high tech region cannot get qualified US citizens so as a result, begs foreigners from such countries as India, a great incentive to come here to work. The US is training and graduating students in record numbers at the post and graduate level, but not in the majors needed. We suffer greatly from the "difficult" science and mathematic majors and instead see students opting for the "easier" degress like English and liberal art degrees. You are correct, there is improvement from both sides. I still contend though that depending on others for your employment may very well result in disappoinment and frustration. Self reliance, while far more difficult, is far more rewarding. Rat...

 

[DFB]

Rat, I'm confused? Where did I SAY ALL THE JOBS ARE GOING TO MEXICO. If I read what I WROTE RIGHT I said more manufacturing jobs have to remain here. And to do that we can't price ourselves out of the competition by unreal profit and wage excesses. Nobody mentioned PROTECTIONISM or closing down free trade either.

Lets face it everyone can't be a tech wiz or self-employed (glad it works out good for you) and ya can't always make a decent living waiting on tables or cleaning up after other people. The gap is growing wider between the have's and the have nots everyday. Its the way world turns for sure.

People in those other countries WILL take our work so that they can someday possibly have the same standard of living that we have. The world is growing at an alarming rate. I know lots of high tech work is replacing the hands on manufacturing that built this country and honestly, to me IT SEEMS LIKE most consumer items you pick up are made overseas, China especially. As for college grads being in the wrong majors opting for "easy" who is responsible for that? The students? Their parents? The educators and guidance counselors? As for the employment/unemployment numbers I don't have them available but I do know that creating/replacing an $15.00HR job with a $6.00-$7.00HR job is still considered growth by our screwed gov't statistics, along with tweaked unemployment numbers ONCE YOU BENNIE'S ARE OVER YOUR NO LONGER COUNTED WHETHER OR NOT YOU ARE WORKING. That makes it skewed for sure. Have a nice day.

DFB

 

[TBone]

Wingnut, I have been out-of-pocket for over a week and I'm afraid my mind is muddled (even more than usual) with the tragedies yesterday.

Do you really doubt that the Canadian government controls the price of their lumber that they import into the US?????? If so, go to Yahoo or any other search engine and type in Canadian lumber subsidies. Yahoo has 1430 pages of FACTS on the way the subsidies work. Is there some propaganda scattered through some of these publications? Probably, but the FACT is that the government keeps the price of their exported lumber artificially low.

I hope you didn't take my remarks as being anti-Canada. I have nothing but admiration and respect for our neighbors to the north. It's just that I disagree with them on this.

TBone

 

[banjobj]

DFB, VERY WELL SAID!!!!!

 

[Wingnut]

sorry for the delay in responding to this ... but I've been stranded in Atlanta for awhile.
I find all these accusations about "corporate greed in the quest for higher profits" highly amusing (not!),
I was in Atlanta taking a course on process improvements ... trying to learn more about eliminating waste, redundancy and bad processes/procedures. The company I work for is spending a fortuner on this stuff. Why? Well, heck, corporate greed of course.
We'll just completely ignore the fact that the CEO and the Board are responsible to the shareholders (that's the people ... individually and through mutual funds and 401(k) funds and on and on) to keep the stock valuable ... and, also, churn out improvemenets and growth and dividends.
So ... does your attitude mean that you would rather your stocks diminish in value before your retirement? Or that you have no assets tied up in stock or bonds (it's all stuffed in your safety deposit box)?
And ... while I'm still raving mad and tired after a 17 hour bus trip back from Atlanta because the company won't let us fly (for some reason, it actually seems to sometimes care about it's employees) ... would it be ok to point out that some of H-D's success is because of corporate welfare (which I happen to oppose for any company, for any reason, at any time) and a frikendly government imposing tariffs on it's competitors? Which you seem to think is ok, unless it's some other country protecting it's jobs from US predation?


too bad that common sense ain't

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Not all foreign countries bidding up items (post earlier in the thread about our wood going out of the USA) is bad. Currently here in Washington we have a "weed" tree ALDER which grows fast and usually isn't worth too much. A lot of it goes for firewood, rots quickly when cut. Currently I hear the Koreans are building furniture with it and has driven the price up over Doug Fir and Cedar. I happen to have a lot of it. You can't keep it forever either as when it reaches a certain size and age (25-40) it starts to rot and falls over so it's not like "traditional" logging where you are cutting fir or cedar that could live 400 years. I'll have to get one of the cool logging arches for my Bota I have seen people post pics about! I've got a lot of Alder. The woodpeckers have said can cut some if I leave the stumps for them to beat on. Speaking of that, you know your woodpile is good and dry when you notice the woodpeckers chopping up your split and stacked firewood!

del

 

[cp1969]

We have been coasting along with the delusion that we could always hire done all the dirty work of manufacturing...let it be done in developing countries, where they work cheap and can make virtually all our products. We felt that dealing in 'information' was the only useful way to spend our time.

The events of this week should wake some people up to the fact that 'information' is only one part of self-sustenance (and not a very big one at that), and when the overseas source of all these goods and raw materials vaporizes due to political differences, that capacity has to be re-established--and quick.

That is, unless you can get China to make our tanks and Iraq to continue to supply us oil while we invade them.

 

[DFB]

Wingnut,

Geez, I hope you've been able to relax a little since your ordeal. No doubt all of America has suffered in one way or another. I'm hopin' that inhaling all those diesel fumes while riding on the bus wasn't too detrimental to your health. Honestly I'm glad to hear that you feel your company is looking out for you. I'm praying daily for one of my former co-workers as he is still with the company as a stateside manager and corporate HQ is in Israel. THEY DON'T STOP REQUESTING HIS PRESENCE OVER THERE

It is good news to hear that your company is just now coming up on the curve and is beginning implementing process improvements to better compete. Statistical Process Controls (SPC), just in time delivery to reduce inventory, on demand production, quality contol circles, Iso 9000/9001 certification, benefit givebacks, reductions in hours, etc. Even UNION DECERTIFICATION. Seen it, done it, tried it all, over a half decade ago and no matter what, the company still closed facilities down and sent the jobs and work orders to Mexico,Taiwan, Barbados and other places too such as the country of Israel in the grand quest to maximize profits during the past eight years. In this case Israel is now responsible for doing our Defense contract work right now. Interesting knowledge to say the least. Makes one wonder how you would get desperatly needed stuff during a MAJOR WORLD CRISIS! Never mind the entertaining thoughts of sabotage from non American workers. Definitely a tidy way to show a profit for sure. Closing down a factory in the U.S. finding someone to work for a buck or two an hour and possibly comprimise our national security in the process. /w3tcompact/icons/cool.gif

To answer your question about owning company shares what can I say except this, simply put, no shareholder wants to see corporate value in the company diminish but having no job because there is no stateside company also means NO 401K, NO PROFIT SHARING, NO BONUSES, AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, NO ANNUAL INCOME beyond just monthly dividends (if any) and long and short term capital gain payouts. I don't really know if it can take the place of a job for most people. I'm sure it works out good for some. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

Wingnut, you DO bring up an important fact in the timeline of HD's success story for sure. Without a little help from the gov't (Reagan years I think I don't dwell in the past too much) THE MOTOR CO and its present position providing manufacturing jobs, global subcontracts, and happy shareholders would certainly not exist today. To close the doors FOREVER on a piece of OUR AMERICAN HERITAGE was just unthinkable to alot of American people for sure. My self included. You are certainly entitled feel otherwise. It's still a free country even after the events the past week. GOD BLESS AMERICA! HOME FREE LAND OF THE BRAVE.

More Americans also benefited big time when the Japanese companies realized that a way around the tariffs was to begin producing machines stateside. HONDA MADE IN AMERICA. Factories were built,(jobs) manufacturing positions created (more jobs), PROFITS STILL GO BACK TO JAPAN. (I'm sure they raffed all the way to the bank) Seems to me everyone wins! Then Americans AND the Japanese can both use their hard earned cash to buy still MORE HARLEY D'S. Have a good day sir.

DFB

 

[Wingnut]

I kind of expected that you'd "intentionally misunderstand the comments about improvments. I don't recall saying this was new ... it's a repetition of what we;'ve been doing since we talked to Deming in the early 80's ... but you just have a good time ... I certainly don't mind.
You didn't answer my question about owning shares ... because my next \question was going to be whether you vote those shares ... go to the annual meetings and question the board about plant closings and why profits are put before maintaining jobs. It's certainly something that I never hear about at shareholder meetings ... all I hear about is people whining about their share value diminishing.
Finally ... I take it that profits going back to Japan are a bad thing while profits that come back to the USA from US-owned multi-nationals are a good thing?? (next time I get to talk to the brass, I'll mention the American public thinks they should leave foreign profits "over there.") I'm also not sure why you seem to value H-D above all else ... I know some people see it as some sort of badge of the US (usually one-percenters who didn't buy theirs anyway) ... but lots of American icons have gone by the wayside ... car companies (where's the Studebaker now ... I loved those cards) , tractor companies, railroad companies, airlines (gee, I miss those Braniff uniforms and those Stews actually cared about service .. and they had cool accents) ... and I miss quite a few of them ... but the US keeps ticking along quite well (thank goodness).

Sabotage? Gee, I've never worried about sabotage from non-US employees ... interesting thought. All the sabotage I've seen to date is from good ole union employees. And then the final back-to-work agreement always includes no-prosecution clauses. And National Security? Let me see, where was Clinton buying his stuff? Oh yeah ... berets from China ... missile secrets to China.

Finally ... thanks for the concern ,,, the diesel fumes have dissipated from my addled brain ... and I'm almost normal again ... and I certainly hope I didn't sound like I was trying to compare myself to those who suffered real hardships in New York and elsewhere ... that was not my intent ... I was merely trying to explain why I sounded even more irrascible with anti-business rhetoric than I usually do.

too bad that common sense ain't

 

[DFB]

Wingnut,

I'll explain a little more about our plant closing and subsequent job losses. Even though we bent over backwards to make successful profits the jobs were still continually sent overseas anyways. As for the Israeli based operations it is my understanding that our jobs were BOUGHT by that foreign gov't. I was told $30,000 was offered for EACH permanent job sent over there. That's a real kick in the @$$ for sure. There was no stopping that deal. The same fellow who sold our missile secrets to China was in on that one too. There will always be bigger players in this world than the average joe. The most powerful in the company/country will still make the final decisions. Free trade, yea right! Since the almighty buck is still the bottom line, company share prices did rise dramatically over the next several years and as much as that still benefited me, it STILL doesn't take the place of a full benefit/fulltime job.

The American worker's job, an economic reality in the U.S. is really what this is about, not anti-business. By creating jobs here in America everyone wins including non-american owners. Like I said before their earnings are theirs to do with what they wish. Not a bad thing at all.

The HD story is simply a great example of things working out for the best to the benefit of all those interests involved, domestic and foreign. I freely admit I have a personal preference for HD. Owned 'em continuously during the last 20 yrs. For as much as you seem to dislike 'em, I like 'em! Thats all there is to it. Buy whatever motorcycle that pleases you, based on your perception of quality, cost, looks, whatever! Just like the tractors. I don't have a problem with it. Oh yea, I'm certainly not a one percenter, nor do I try to be one or act like one. Sorry to disappoint you. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

Ideas of sabotage are probably on the minds of most Americans these days. The possibilities are real. The harbor here is controlled by armed guard and ship movement is restricted. Border security with Canada is being increased here since that was the reported point of origin by the terrorists into Maine. Real to me. I sincerely hope things don't ever escalate to a point where we have to close our borders or have restricted travel into this country. Hey ya never know, we could even by chance end up at the same HONDACADE (oop's) the AMERICADE rally in up Lake George someday./w3tcompact/icons/cool.gif

Have a good day.

BTW, for those interested it was reported in todays local paper that The Dexter Shoe Co was closing down all domestic operations due to being unable to compete with foreign competition.

Link: http://www.portland.com/business/stories/010919dexter.shtml

DFB