Yesterday. Would you buy and EV?

[bnold]

1. Wait, what? Why are apartment dwellers “short commuter crowd”? How do they all charge batteries? Throw long extension cords out the 14th story windows? All of them? Every night?



Long term traffic jam on bridge problem resolved when car batteries die? 95 degrees? 0 degrees?

Cell phone poor example. Small compact easy to recharge.

Do you disagree that ‘most’ apartment dwellers are unlikely to travel great distances for everyday commute? What would be your estimate? I’d guess less than 40miles round trip. This answer plays into whether a home charging station is an absolute requirement for EV ownership.

Personal experience says it is not.

I’d actually be curious to the percentage of EV owners that have Level 2+ charging capabilities at their residence. I’m betting it is well shy of 100% that you seem to be implying is an absolute requirement of ownership/operation.


Cell Phone wasn’t a comparison of how to charge the battery, but an example of something once out of reach for nearly all is now commonplace and free for some.

What percentage of US cars were stuck on a road for so long they ran out of gas last year. Want to understand just how often and to how many this situation occurs to completely negate the viability of an EV. Seems an emergency kit has been recommended for those driving in winter weather well before the popularity of EVs. Why? I mean, if you run out of fuel, just get more.

 

[bazman82]

I was in the boat of looking at trading in my car for something more economical and the only thing that made sense to me at this stage was a hybrid or plug-in hybrid.

The plug-in hybrid would be a perfect for myself since it can be charged at home and you can run up-to 40 miles on strictly electric before the ICE kicks in and most get 30-35mpg on ICE alone. That means, my 25 mile commute (one way) would be just the cost to charge it overnight. If I had a place to charge while at work then my commute home would/could be free. I would not be comfortable strictly owning a pure EV. I take too many trips to places in the middle of nowhere to rely on an EV.

Why not make the roof, hood, trunk etc of EV's solar panels to help recover some of the charge while the car drives or sits wherever? Even if it would take several days to do a full charge, any charge would be better than nothing if you stranded. Steps like that would help for folks that travel. The plug-in hybrid should have been the stepping stone and more main stream for several years to help ease a transition.

 

[JasperFrank]

"Why not make the roof, hood, trunk etc of EV's solar panels to help recover some of the charge while the car drives or sits wherever?" What you can put on a roof, is bearly what would recharge the 12 volt DC battery. It would do nothing to recharge a main battery pack.

 

[bnold]

Buyers purchase EVs for 3 reasons:

1) "I will save the planet"
2) "I will save money"
3) New Toy Syndrome.

1 is false (coal and gas will generate the electricity for the next 30+ years)
2 is false (90% of EV buyers will still own an ICE vehicle for trips over 200 miles. If you wanted to save money you wouldn't buy a $40K vehicle, period).

I'm betting 20% of the buyers have 3--New Toy Syndrome. Ipso Facto: 80% of EV buyers are suckers.

216 miles in my EV every DAY that I drive to office. About $4 in ‘fuel’

Have ICE road vehicles. Diesel truck that is 7,500mi/yr or less. It is largely strictly towing/hauling duty. Need the truck for those duties, the economy of an additional 40k miles/year on that vehicle would be stupid.

Wife has a hybrid SUV, still not thrilled with that vehicle. Guessing it will likely be traded for an EV when a good alternative to model Y pops up. Hyundai probably closest I think right now, but more range and that will do the trick.


Is the concept so hard to grasp that if I (or others) didn’t buy a nicely equipped/featured EV, the equal alternative is a sub $25k vehicle?

Ain’t gonna happen. The commuter was going to be in the 40-60 range regardless for an ‘or equal’ and the cost of ownership of that car for the 3yrs I’d own it would be higher. So you aren’t correct for point 2.

I agree with you on those who go EV for point #1. Those purchasers are short sighted.

New toys are great. Cars, trucks, OHV, boats, tractors, implements, cell phones, new boots, new clothes, house in the country man to be alive!

 

[bnold]

Why not make the roof, hood, trunk etc of EV's solar panels to help recover some of the charge while the car drives or sits wherever? Even if it would take several days to do a full charge, any charge would be better than nothing if you stranded. Steps like that would help for folks that travel. The plug-in hybrid should have been the stepping stone and more main stream for several years to help ease a transition.

How much solar could you possibly generate on car surfaces? 300-500W?
8hrs of decent PV generation per day right now in Tx assuming you park at perfect spot and angles. So 3kwh of generation.
1kwh gets you about 3 miles. So that solar on car system is at best 10miles of generation in a day.

Do agree the plug in hybrid model is a cool concept. I’d like to see a small diesel variant not strapped down with emissions BS.

 

[bazman82]

Just brainstorming is all. Never know how technology will change in the future. Maybe someday it'll be possible.

A diesel hybrid would be nice. Maybe they can do that with a 3/4 ton truck and make it affordable.....................

 

[Hay Dude]

Do you disagree that ‘most’ apartment dwellers are unlikely to travel great distances for everyday commute? What would be your estimate? I’d guess less than 40miles round trip. This answer plays into whether a home charging station is an absolute requirement for EV ownership.

Personal experience says it is not.

I’d actually be curious to the percentage of EV owners that have Level 2+ charging capabilities at their residence. I’m betting it is well shy of 100% that you seem to be implying is an absolute requirement of ownership/operation.


Cell Phone wasn’t a comparison of how to charge the battery, but an example of something once out of reach for nearly all is now commonplace and free for some.

What percentage of US cars were stuck on a road for so long they ran out of gas last year. Want to understand just how often and to how many this situation occurs to completely negate the viability of an EV. Seems an emergency kit has been recommended for those driving in winter weather well before the popularity of EVs. Why? I mean, if you run out of fuel, just get more.

How do you figure all city dwellers are short commuters? That’s a wild assumption. A home charging station IS an absolute requirement. With a few exceptions for city dwellers with a garage, where else can you leave a car plugged in overnight in the city to recharge? People in apartments are left out and that’s probably 50 million people!
Bro, when a ICE car runs out of gas, it’s easy to toss in a gallon and life goes on. If an EV dies in the middle of the GW bridge, you got a much much bigger problem.
Its still a rich suburban guys toy.

 

[hiddentacocatneddih]

I drive 104 miles a day for work. My last car was free and lasted 75,000 miles. It died at 340,000 miles. I spent between 7500-12000$ in gas over the vehicle life.

An EV wouldn't of paid off

Current work vehicle is a van I paid off 4 years ago and have owned for about 8 years. I spend at $5 a gallon about $4330 a year in gas. And the vehicle only cost me $15000 when I bought it in 2014

Until Ev's come down to sub $25,000 and battery degradation worries are gone, I'm out. I keep my vehicles on average 10+ years and a few hundred thousand miles.

 

[bnold]

How do you figure all city dwellers are short commuters? That’s a wild assumption. A home charging station IS an absolute requirement. With a few exceptions for city dwellers with a garage, where else can you leave a car plugged in overnight in the city to recharge? People in apartments are left out and that’s probably 50 million people!
Bro, when a ICE car runs out of gas, it’s easy to toss in a gallon and life goes on. If an EV dies in the middle of the GW bridge, you got a much much bigger problem.
Its still a rich suburban guys toy.

You said ALL, I said MOST. Do you understand the difference, Bro?

I have never claimed EV to be the right solution for everyone, I only enjoy arguing with those so steadfast against with ALL, ALWAYS, NEVER arguments that are largely baseless as this one is, Bra.

And yes, average commute round trip for all commuters is very short. This says over 50% of the population has a commute less than 20mi round trip.

https://www.nrc.gov/docs/ML1006/ML100621425.pdf

Do some research on this and report back. The percentage of EV owners with at home charging is actually decreasing as public charging stations are increasing.

Why is it a requirement to charge overnight and not at charging stations for many? (Notice again, I didn’t say all)

Do most houses have gas stations built in? I mean I have a fuel trailer on property, but I figured that was reserved for rural folks.

Charging stations is actually the acceptable solution for many now. They are becoming far more numerous in many areas. Can literally drive across the country.

Do you possibly think that towing services that once delivered that gallon of gas or changed a tire aren’t modifying their business able to accommodate a ‘jump’ for an EV? Hint: these already exist and many companies are building ‘jump packs’ now for this type of service both in AC and DC variants.

You got it, rich suburban guys toy, sure aren’t any Hyundai, Ford, Chevy, Nissan etc EVs on the market that are at or very near the price point of a common ICE. Honda Civic, Toyota Camry, whatever.

 

[Hay Dude]

I drive 104 miles a day for work. My last car was free and lasted 75,000 miles. It died at 340,000 miles. I spent between 7500-12000$ in gas over the vehicle life.

An EV wouldn't of paid off

Current work vehicle is a van I paid off 4 years ago and have owned for about 8 years. I spend at $5 a gallon about $4330 a year in gas. And the vehicle only cost me $15000 when I bought it in 2014

Until Ev's come down to sub $25,000 and battery degradation worries are gone, I'm out. I keep my vehicles on average 10+ years and a few hundred thousand miles.

Thats my biggest problems with EV’s, too.
The up front cost of car & home charger with electricity going way up in price (thanks to the extreme cost of windmills and solar)

Then there’s the rape of the enviroment to mine for lithium, the Chinese low cost or even slave labor in making the parts and then there’s the toxic waste disposal of the batteries.

Sounds like a loser for the environment and the manipulation of the people who have to mine for the resources and make the parts for them.

 

[bnold]

I drive 104 miles a day for work. My last car was free and lasted 75,000 miles. It died at 340,000 miles. I spent between 7500-12000$ in gas over the vehicle life.

An EV wouldn't of paid off

Current work vehicle is a van I paid off 4 years ago and have owned for about 8 years. I spend at $5 a gallon about $4330 a year in gas. And the vehicle only cost me $15000 when I bought it in 2014

Until Ev's come down to sub $25,000 and battery degradation worries are gone, I'm out. I keep my vehicles on average 10+ years and a few hundred thousand miles.

You are correct sir.
I agree, we should all get free vehicles.
Add a boat, plane, cell phone, house, healthcare, and food while we are at it.

Why are we comparing the cost of a used or free car to a new car? I mean Carvana has a used Leaf at $11k right now.

What was the new cost of that van and free car adjusted for inflation today?

Nissan Leaf $27k new today ($20k after tax credit)
I think the cheapest new car in 2022 is right at $20-21k

 

[bnold]

Then there’s the rape of the enviroment to mine for lithium, the Chinese low cost or even slave labor in making the parts and then there’s the toxic waste disposal of the batteries.

Sounds like a loser for the environment and the manipulation of the people who have to mine for the resources and make the parts for them.

Yup, only thing the world mines lithium for is EVs.
Fantasy land.

If you can only purchase products which raw materials and production from countries who are ‘responsible’ towards environment and people then I commend you as that is a difficult quest. I’d venture to say the US is pretty environmentally irresponsible in many cases, all a matter of scale I suppose. How do you determine the level of irresponsibility to what is ok or not for your liking? Is there some sort of metric?

 

[JasperFrank]

I think the metric is a strange dance between 1st tier manufacturers and consumers.
In the world of computer refurbishing, I've seen a lot, and had far too many WTF moments when you are faced with a device that is intentionally designed not to be repaired. It is difficult to get across, to those not in the industry, just how bad E-waste is. Not to pick on Apple, but i will, when they came out with the Clam Shell E-Macs, you knew something was horribly wrong when they designed the battery in the case, held in by adhesive, and you basiclly had to break the laptop to get it apart. Apple had designed the BIC Lighter of Computers. My thought of horror is that Car Manufactuers will follow the same, now well established, model of designing cars with a planned life span. There is no 2nd or 3rd tier economy here. They sold you the BIC Car. They are the ONLY people that can fix it, and when they decide not to support it, at their whim... you are screwed.

 

[bnold]

Don’t disagree with that.

Seems as though manufacturers of all things are going that way.

My little Kubota B2710 for instance started leaking diesel at the delivery valves. Just old brittle seals.

The only thing Kubota will sell is a new $1,000+ pump when $0.50 in o-rings needed replaced. No documentation on the repair process either.

So I ordered new o-rings and a tiny locator pin (dropped it and couldn’t locate!!) from an outfit in Germany. Cost about $20 with shipping and back running with no leaks.

We consumers have requested this… Cheap as possible. Cheap means Kubota doesn’t have to carry inventory for component parts. Inventory cost $$.

 

[hiddentacocatneddih]

You are correct sir.
I agree, we should all get free vehicles.
Add a boat, plane, cell phone, house, healthcare, and food while we are at it.

Why are we comparing the cost of a used or free car to a new car? I mean Carvana has a used Leaf at $11k right now.

What was the new cost of that van and free car adjusted for inflation today?

Nissan Leaf $27k new today ($20k after tax credit)
I think the cheapest new car in 2022 is right at $20-21k

My van I currently drive was 15000 1 year old. The drive train still yields the same miles per tank as it did when we bought it.

My dad got leaf used at their dealer and they had to scrap it. The battery was bad and it was twice the cost of the value of the vehicle to replace. They used it as a golf cart till they found a scrap place to take it. There wasnt anywhere willing to take it

 

[ultrarunner]

Did they try Craigslist...

Seen advertising for EV with spent batteries.

 

[bsekf]

Have been doing a little searching and I can't find a 2-3 year old EV for under $40K. Might better buy new.... but they aren't available either. Am I looking in the wrong place?

 

[ultrarunner]

Not from those I know…

It’s often the perks that go with it… preferred company parking, single occupant use of carpool lane during commute hours, tie in with work/home PV arrays.

One early adopter cited free Tesla charging and no more vehicle inspections…

 

[CloverKnollFarms]

Have been doing a little searching and I can't find a 2-3 year old EV for under $40K. Might better buy new.... but they aren't available either. Am I looking in the wrong place?

No, that sounds about right.
And then you can attempt to charge it during rolling blackouts

 

[AndyMA]

Thats my biggest problems with EV’s, too.
The up front cost of car & home charger with electricity going way up in price (thanks to the extreme cost of windmills and solar)

Then there’s the rape of the enviroment to mine for lithium, the Chinese low cost or even slave labor in making the parts and then there’s the toxic waste disposal of the batteries.

View attachment 751373

Sounds like a loser for the environment and the manipulation of the people who have to mine for the resources and make the parts for them.

Thats my biggest problems with EV’s, too.
The up front cost of car & home charger with electricity going way up in price (thanks to the extreme cost of windmills and solar)

Then there’s the rape of the enviroment to mine for lithium, the Chinese low cost or even slave labor in making the parts and then there’s the toxic waste disposal of the batteries.



Sounds like a loser for the environment and the manipulation of the people who have to mine for the resources and make the parts for them.

Extreme cost of windmills & solar? Where did you come up with that? As an engineer for the owner of 2nd largest installed base of solar and wind turbines in North America I beg to differ. Solar system are much cheaper to build than natural gas plants. Natural gas plants average $812 per kW. Utility solar plants are considerably less than $200 per kW, Also keep in mind the cost to run a solar plant in zero. Certainly not zero for a natural gas plant. Also maintenance costs ar much higher on natural gas plants

Andy