ZTR - need help deciding

[BrianB]

I mow over 5 acres (about 3.5 pretty open and maybe 2 pretty with a lot of trees). I've been using a 1972 Allis Chalmers 314-H garden tractor which has a 48" deck. This has been an awesome mower, but it just takes too long (5-6 hrs) and has had some serious downtime the last couple of years (right now the steering gearbox went out).

I have decided to get a ZTR to mow with and can't make up my mind. I've looked at several brands.

I have a new Dixie Chopper dealer close by and he dropped a XG2703 (60" with 27 HP Generac) off the other day to try out. I mowed the entire place in about 2.5 hours and it was awesome. It really sold me on the whole ZTR idea. He wants $7200 which is as low as I've seen in my area.

I'm also seriously considering a Lesco 60" with 25 HP Kaw. This is identical to the Cub Cadet M60 Tank. It is priced very nicely at $5999.

Finally, I'm considering a Grasshopper 223 with 60" deck, rollbar and 23HP Kohler. This is actually from out of state, but the price is $6,700 and GH is offering 1.9% financing.

I'm not necessarily looking to add any new models to the mix although I know there are many other good ones (even better) out there.

Any suggestions or recommendations among these 3? Will I notice the difference between the 27HP Generac (D.C) vs 25HP Kaw (Lesco) and the 23HP Kohler (Grasshopper)? I would appreciate any input from folks who own or have experience with any of these.

Thanks

 

[rbeitz]

These are all good machines and any one of them should serve you well. Is there any way to get the Lesco out for a demo on your own property? That would help you decide which one works better in your environment.

Personally I wouldn't go below 25 hp on a 60" deck. How about service? Which dealer will service you mower better when/if it's ever needed? Does Lesco service their own mowers? I know some Lesco dealers do not.

 

[Dickey]

I've been looking at them also, I've decided to go with a Kubota only because I have two tractors that are Kubota's and they have really been good. If I was getting something else it would probably be the Grasshopper altho like the Kubota it is pretty expensive. When you start comparing them it's like an old friend use to say, it only cost twenty percent more to go first class.

 

[BrianB]

Thanks for the reply. The Lesco dealer is 60 miles away, so it's a little more difficult coordinating the demo, but he's going to try to get it down to me later this week. Would I be disappointed with 52" instead of 60". I used the 60" Dixie and it seemed to be a good size, but I don't know if I'll notice much difference with a 52".

 

[gamble77]

Do you have any Cub dealers in your area? If so then they have 0% for 36months on the Tanks. We sell both Tanks and GrassHoppers and both are excellent machines. Thats a good price on the GH by the way. Good luck and keep us posted!

 

[BKB]

There are several cub dealers around and I think I would love the Tank. It's just a little hard to justify $1000-$1300 more than the exact same machine from Lesco. The warranty might be a little better on the cub though. I need to do the math on the zero percent too since I was thinking of adding this to my equity line of credit which certainly isn't 0%. I haven't tried the GH out yet, but I'm told they are awesome machines. In your opinion which do you prefer (GH or Tank)? Do you think the 23HP is a little undersized for a 60" deck? The 25 HP is $700 more from this dealer which seems a lot for only 2 more HP. Will it make that much difference?
Thanks

 

[KiotiJohn]

I don't think a 2 HP difference is significant with a 60" deck. I've used less HP for that size deck with no problem.
The Grasshopper is reputed to be an excellent machine. I've read quite a few posts praising them.
The Dixie Chopper is a well made, tough machine, but I can't see the money.
I don't particularly like MTD, the maker of Cub Cadet, but others don't have a problem with them.
I'm picking up a Hustler 42" ZTR (residential grade) tomorrow for around $3200. But of your choices, I'd take the GH.
John

 

[gamble77]

Which do I recommend, this is always a tough question for me...

We have been a long time GH dealer, like over 15 years and I have praised GH up and down until I am blue in the face for years...guess you could say we are an "old line" dealer.

I do however, believe that the market has a way of "working itself" out. By that I mean this....

four years ago we became a Ferris dealer well, I couldn't sell a Ferris next to a GH, people just understood the quality and performance difference between the two and the GH was the obvious choise. And please dont take that to mean that Ferris is a bad product, as I am not familiar with new Farris models and what-have-you, that was just the case in my territory. Now that I have the Tanks, I sell 6 Tanks to every one GH.

Now one reason is because Cub has that excellent financing, and GH's are usually a few hundred more than Cub. Now GH has competative financing they will hopefully be able to hang with Cub in my area. What I have experienced a lot latetly is that Commercial guys want the GH, where as residential users gravitate towards the Cubs.

They are both great units...but in my honest opinion if I was ever going to own a ZTR I would want a front mount...and GH makes the best front mounts on the market bar-none. Front mounts ride better and can cut under objects...plus you have better visibility of the deck and what it is cutting. Mid-mounts are all the rage though...either one willl work amazingly well for your needs.

 

[rfawkes]

I got a Swisher ZTR 50 " cut last year for 3000. I mow 8 acres and it works great. I also have a Swisher pull behind trail mower I have had for 5 years, and it works great. Check out their website for information, and a dealer near you.

 

[Nasty135]

Brian, You ask so I'll tell what I know (that should be breif /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif)

I searched for 6mos. for the right ZTR for my 5acres looked at Gravely ,Scag, Hustler ,E-mark ,Toro, Bobcat and finally Lesco.

Gravely was first one looked at 260Z 60" fairly large as size goes length and width 27hp kohler hydraulic deck lift(over kill) very large chute sheild noticed at service bay all owners had taken them off. priced @ $6995 in my area

Scag, excellent machine with oil coolers kohler powered would last very long time for residential use Very heavy duty but IMO exspensive over $8k

Hustler , This is a very good mower with active oil coolers great warranty and styling for the consument Hotrodder(rear wing on the Super Z 60") 27hp kohler and good pumps like the rest, weight adjustable seat . priced @ $7900. my area

E-mark , Lots of them in my area , I personally have no knowledge of them supposed to be good (exspensive),Didn't really appeal to me $$$

Toro, Looking into them was just a breif moment as the design for maintenance wasn't what I would call user friendly and I think pumps were not top of the line,also looked a little cheesy IMO Priced at over $7k if I remember correctly

Bobcat, Looked pretty good to me but the dealer confided to me that they were a little maintenance hungry for repairs /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif and not cheap @ around $8k so forgot that one quickly , But to be fair I really didn't look it over at all myself

Lesco, Which I never knew exsisted until I was looking for some fertilizer.... Had a 60" 25hp kawasaki seemed a bit smaller(chute sheild) for manuverability issues good pumps, comfort seat w/recline easy belt sheild removal grease fitting for all spindle's and moving parts, welded deck which doesn't hang from chains but floating lever's and a pivoting front axle priced $1k less than the cheapest other competitor... /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gifalso lesco has a spring sale which knocks another $300 of the list price of the 60" units and $200 of the 54" on down

Also when looking at kohler 27hp& kawasaki 25hp remember 2hp isn't much but its torque that keeps you moving through the thick stuff and here are the spec's for both engine's 27hp kohler has 42.7 ft lbs @ 3k rpm and the kawasaki has 41 ft lbs @ 2400 rpm .

Wheewee, well hope this is food for thought! /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

PS: I bought the Lesco /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif and it mows great, this past week we had a lot of rain and the grass got tall. If I had to cut it with my tractor and rear finish mower I would have had to rake it because of it balling up a looking like crap! But the Lesco went through it like butter a threw it out the chute with no clumps balling or winrowing and best of all NO RAKING!
And the grass although not wet had a lot of moisture in it making it pretty heavy.
I feel for a homeowner's unit or even commercial use it was a bargain ,money well spent and I hate to spend my money...

 

[BrianB]

Never heard of Swisher, so I'll go look at them. Thanks for the input. $3 grand sounds appealing. Is it considered commercial grade? At 3 grand probably not, but I may not need commercial grade. I just love the idea of buying one mower that should last a lifetime.

 

[BrianB]

Thanks a ton for sharing your ZTR purchase history.... Sounds pretty similar to what I've been going through.

I've heard nothing but good from the major players and several of the not so major ones.

Here's my total cost (TC) breakdowns (not including maintenance of course):

1. Lesco (60",25HP, $5,999, Tax, 5%/3 yrs) TC = $6,958
Parts and Service are available in state, but approx 60 miles away. Excellent mower for the price, would need to finance on my equity line or credit union for about 5%.

2. Grasshopper (60",23HP,$6,700, NO TAX??, 1.9%/3 yrs) TC=$6,898
Heard nothing but excellent reviews from GH. Some question the 60" with 23HP. Great financing at 1.9%. Dealer doesn't charge out of state sales tax, so I'm not sure how I would handle that? If purchased from out of state, I probably won't have quite as friendly of service from my closest dealer.

3. Grasshopper (60", 25HP,$7,400, NO TAX??, 1.9%/3 yrs) TC=$7,618
Same as above. Is the extra 2 HP worth $700.

4. Dixie Chopper (60", 27HP,$7,200, TAX, 5%/3 yrs) TC=$8,351
A little high after tax and interest. FAST. Dealer is 4 miles from my house. He owns an auto service station and is a good mechanic, but just recently got into selling mowers. Not sure if he'll be selling mowers for the long haul, but I'm sure he'd always service whatever he sells. Very good mechanic and reputable.

My wallet is telling me to go for the Lesco or 23HP Grasshopper. My heart may be telling me to go for the DC but my heart has burned me a few times in the past.

Thanks again

 

[Dargo]

I just bought a 2nd ZTR to help mow my 12 acre yard. I have a 5 or 6 year old diesel powered front mount Grasshopper that has been great. My impatience is the only reason I didn't get another Grasshopper this last weekend when I purchased. Nobody local had a front mount Grasshopper like I wanted; they were sold out and waiting for new units to arrive.

Some people are probably tired of me posting my experience, but I did have 5 different ZTR mowers at my property and test drove (mowing with them of course) in my yard. Honestly most all are pretty good that I tried. I did start out wanting to spend only around 3K for my 2nd unit. As someone correctly pointed out in a thread I had about buying a 2nd unit, that price range puts you in "no man's land" for a ZTR.

After having a quality front mount diesel Grasshopper with their G2 hydraulics, all the units that were priced from 3 to 4k looked like a total waste of money for me. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif No way would I have been happy with one of those. Also, there only seems to be one model that has experienced a noticable reliability problem, but they still sell well because they look pretty, and they have a cool name. I won't go there, because feelings get hurt and tempers flare.

Anyway, I had no idea how much better a front mount mower rides compared to a mid mount ZTR. I really didn't. Although every mid mount ZTR I brought home had a faster ground speed than my old Grasshopper, there was no way I could have mowed faster with them. I've taken too many blind side tackles and raced motocross for too many years to be able to take that kind of beating at my age now.

I don't want to sound like I have stock in them, or that I'm really trying to sell product for them, but the Ferris ZTR's with suspension made a huge difference in the ride in my yard. Granted, many people may have a yard that is smoother than me, and it wouldn't make any difference. After using the Grasshopper for years, I really didn't think that I had that rough of a yard, but I do.

If you have not used the mowers in your yard that you are considering, I highly recommend you do. I'm embarrassed to say, but the dealer who first offered me a demo (and got me to think about using the mower I was considering in my own yard) actually lost the sale because his mower beat the tar out of me. He had great built products and was reasonable with his pricing, but I just couldn't handle the ride.

So, based on my experience (and a couple thousand hours in the seat of a ZTR over the years), I'd highly recommend trying out what you want to buy in your own yard. If you do some research, you will find the one manufacturer who has reliablity issues. Otherwise, buy what works for you in your yard. And, yes, I'm still very well pleased with my Grasshopper and only time will tell if the decent riding 3000 series Ferris mid mount ZTR will prove to be as good for me.

 

[Spiffy]

Hello,

I think Gamle and Dargo touched on an interesting point and it agrees with what I see up this way: GH front mounts are incredible machines [the FIL has one, and I drove another one too, but didn't like $5500 for a well used 618]. It looks like you're looking at all mids; so while I have no doubt that GH is still great quality, I don't see a $1000 advantage (with HP ratings these day, more HP seems to be always better, but I doubt the 23HP is an issue).

The DC I don't know anything about, but here's the question I have to ask: "why does the heart say DC" certain feel that just fits you?; confidence in the dealer? (Neither a bad reason, but just have to consider how much the reason is worth to you).

Finally, judging from what you and Nasty have said about the Lesco being identical to the Tank; I think you'll have a lot of bang for the buck. The Tanks are sure nice units (though, I wound up with a Snapper on a "demo model" deal).

Sounds like a lot of good choices!

 

[BKB]

The only reason the heart tells me Dixie is because of the local dealer. He's a good guy and I know he'd treat me right when I need any service, but I don't think it's worth the extra $$.

I would say I'm now leaning toward the Lesco and the Grasshopper 223/61. With the financing and tax issues, they are going to cost me almost exactly the same. I have inspected the Lesco vs the Tank and can not tell any difference. I'll try to post a picture below of the Lesco side by side with the Tank for you to see.

I appreciate everyone's input.

 

[bigtractor]

There are alot of points to study on a ZTR.
One that I us is stand in front of it and see how fasteners you see. Get one that is clean and smooth not all bolted together.
The cleanest I see is a Hustler.

 

[Jagmandave]

What, no cupholder on either one of these? Forget it! /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

I also really liked the Dixie, and came very close to buying one, but what led me to Exmark was a better ride, even tho not quite as fast as the Dixie, I can't run it full speed anyway, and the fact that the deck on the Exmark stood out about 6" on the left, allowing me to mow close to trees and other objects without rubbing the tire as I went around. In other words, for my property, the Exmark was the better choice. You should follow other's advice, and try any that you're seriously considering on your property first, then choose the one you like the best. 5 years from now, you won't even remember the extra $ you spent for the "right" one.

 

[Spiffy]

Your Lesco picture looks a lot like the ones Nasty posted; if there are differences from the Tank, I can't tell; further, I'd think the confusion of putting in a different grade of bearings or something like that would cost as much as the savings. I'd say it's a safe assumption the difference is mostly paint.

As far as service, it really varies from dealer to dealer whether they care where you bought it [all things being equal and "financially close" I will give a local dealer the benifit of the doubt]. Since the markup on parts is often greater than the machine many are quite happy to service anything they're familiar with [i.e. a CC dealer may like to work on your Lesco or the local GH dealer may not care where you got it]. I don't know how the 3 year financing on the Tanks came out for you either.

Don't know if that adds or subtracts from your confusion, but I think you have picked some very good machines to chose from.

 

[BKB]

That's kind of what I've heard too on the service issues. A friend of mine asked one of the local dealers about this point blank and the dealer/service man said that he has no problem working on equipment purchased somewhere else with one exception. That being if the machine is still under warranty, he really doesn't make enough to make it worth his while if you didn't purchase it from him. Don't know how true this really is, but it does worry me a little (but not that much). Hopefully I won't need anything done under warranty.

Anyway, I made my decision after a ton of thought and research. It was very difficult due to all the AWESOME machines out there. In the end, I decided to get the Grasshopper 227-61. It turned out that the larger GH was actually 27HP not 25HP, so I decided to go for the upgrade for an extra $650. I think I'll be much happier with the extra HP with the 61" cut.

In the end, I think the name brand of Grasshopper sold me a little over the Lesco. I personally have NO problem with the Lesco, but I was recently burned with an attempt to trade in my 1999 TAFE DI-35 utility tractor/loader. It's a massey clone but the value on this thing is not very good compared to what I paid for it. It's a different situation, but I think the GH might hold it's resale value a little better than the Lesco. Of course I have no intention of selling this thing.

I picked it up today and it's in my garage waiting on some decent weather. I had to take a couple of swipes across the yard just to see how it would perform in our extremely wet conditions and I was quite impressed. I had the dealer fill the turfs and I think it was a wise move because I didn't even spin a tire going down hill up hill side to side (not terribly steep, but my entire property is sloping).

Thanks EVERYONE for your input. All the advise was extremely valuable! I'm sure I would have been very happy with at least 10-12 different machines, but I'm glad I have the Grasshopper now.

Hopefully I'll be able to cut my grass soon with it though since it's getting pretty high and the rain doesn't seem to want to let up.

-Brian

 

[Dargo]

I'm sort of tagging this post on the end of this thread knowing that it won't receive a lot of views. After spending hours and hours researching and test driving ZTR's a week ago, I'd purchased the Ferris IS 3000. I no longer have that mower. /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Before anyone thinks that there is a problem with the Ferris mowers, I'll tell you that there isn't. The issue is something different. From hundreds of hours, well, actually thousands, of seat time in a ZTR, I have found that the front mount mowers flat out are better at mowing my lawn than a mid mount mower. /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif I thought that with the suspension on the Ferris, which made the ride bearable, that I would like a mid mount ZTR. Afterall, that is what you see most of out mowing.

It was really a lesson to me to learn that the mid mount mowers simply are not as productive if you have obsticles to mow around. You cannot get as close to things, and you leave a much larger area that needs to be trimmed in corners. The final blow for me was trying to mow around a lake with a mid mount ZTR. A word of advice; don't. With a front mount Grasshopper, I had zero, zip, nada, trimming to do around my lake. With a mid mount mower, I had about 1000 feet of 1' wide minimum trimming to do. Trying to get any closer to a lake will get you wet! /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif Not once. Not twice, but three times I stuck the mid mount ZTR in the lake!! It was never bad, but each time I had to shut everything off, walk to my barn, get my tractor and a snatch strap, and pull the ZTR out from where it was stuck.

Combine that with taking considerbly more time to mow around obsticles and leaving more area to trim in corners spelled doom for my mid mount mower aspirations. My new Grasshopper front mount mower will arrive today. This will put two Grasshoppers in my stable of mowers. As much as I tried to save money and go with a less expensive mid mount mower and not fork out the cash for another Grasshopper, I found that having used a front mount mower (and seeing the productivity possible with it), I just can't justify going to a mid mount.

The mid mount mowers will work just fine if you have a relatively smooth lawn, and you do not have a lot of obsticles to mow around, and if you don't have a lake. As a matter of fact, the ground speed of the mid mount mower was 2mph faster than the front mount. However, due to the rougher ride, even with suspension, I could not mow any faster on my lawn with the mid mount. I just thought I'd throw out my unfortunate experience so anyone debating between a front mount and a mid mount will know what the actual difference is in performance. (at my expense)

The only difference between a mid mount ZTR mower and a lawn tractor is speed and the turning radius. A front mount mower has those advantages over a lawn tractor, plus it adds a considerable amount more accessability to areas that cannot be reached with the other mowers. This was a fairly expensive lesson for me to learn. I had every intention in the world of buying a mid mount ZTR. After using a front mount for years, I found the difference between a mid mount and a front mount to be as big as the difference between a lawn tractor and a ZTR. Each step makes a difference. Unfortunately, each step costs more money. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif Now that I search my memory, I've never noticed a golf course using anything but front mount mowers. Some are reel type, but still front mount. Now I know why. /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif