Working toward refund from TMY, hoping to move to LS...question on which HP and any concerns about your MT series

[jyoutz]

My New Holland (LS) has 200 hours now and has been 100% flawless with zero repairs. I still have no regrets. I shopped, sat on, operated, researched every brand on the market before buying it. The LS/NH was clearly the best value on the market, and NH dealers are everywhere.

I wouldn't touch a Kubota with a ten foot pole. I have no idea how those tractors got so popular.

Kubotas are popular because they work, and they have dealer presence and parts everywhere. Probably only second to Deere in dealer presence/parts availability.

 

[Torvy]

I cannot understand a person's thought process when they buy one no-name tractor and it burns them...and then they decide to buy another no-name tractor. You aren't saving money if your tractor is in the shop and they can't fix it and don't want to help you.

I cannot understand people who think other brands are no-name because they personally don't know them. Using your logic, Kubota would never have penetrated the market as they were a no-name, too. So was John Deere at one point.

JD and Kubota also have crappy dealers. The root cause here is the bad dealer in Iowa. Everything else is just someone trying to help. Put your high horse back in the barn.

 

[CloverKnollFarms]

I could almost buy 2 TYMs for the cost of a Kubota similarly equipped. I guess one for use, and one as a backup

 

[troverman]

My New Holland (LS) has 200 hours now and has been 100% flawless with zero repairs. I still have no regrets. I shopped, sat on, operated, researched every brand on the market before buying it. The LS/NH was clearly the best value on the market, and NH dealers are everywhere.

I wouldn't touch a Kubota with a ten foot pole. I have no idea how those tractors got so popular.

I would like to point out a couple of things:
1.) New Holland dealers will fix New Holland tractors under warranty, even if its just a NH-branded LS tractor. You will get the NH dealer and customer service experience, and possibly better parts availability because of this. NH dealers are not going to do any of those things for LS tractors, even if its the identical one to the NH.

2.) You say you wouldn't touch Kubota, yet in your signature you have a Land Pride implement, which is Kubota.

As an LS owner, 2014 LS XR4046, its been a great tractor until its not. 700 hours and I can tell you the work it has done, it dug out my foundation for my retirement home I built, by dug out, I mean for a floating slab (frost protected insulated slab) and put fill in, for hours and hours its has worked flawlessly, religiously maintained. I bought the tractor to be the LAST newer one I own, it only had 12 hours on it when I bought it. The only issue now is that its sitting broken down at the moment and that is due to emissions NOT the actual tractor itself. According to the dealer, needs an ECU and new DPF, cost $4500. This is the drawback to any tier 4 engine and its not just specific to LS, many other brands are also facing the same dilemma. The engine itself is a Shibaura, good engines IF they don't have emissions crap on it. Since I paid over $20 grand for the tractor and its no longer under warranty, I have decided to keep it and find a work around for the emissions, as I would rather spend my money finding a work around that works instead of just replacing it with another tractor. If I had a choice right now to buy in today's market, I would go "Old", meaning no emissions tractor if you can find it. Its disappointing when the neighbor has an old Ford tractor with over 10k hours and no major issues, then I look at mine with only 700 hours and now crippled by the EPA. Do your research, there is NOTHING worse than having a break down in the field and even if you are competent mechanic you cannot fix it because of computers and emissions stuff, you lose time and lots n lots of money. If I would have bought an older LS such as 2012 etc. it might not have had any emissions on it or just a little if that.

The emissions systems are absolutely part of the tractor. LS decides how to spec-build its machines, including which engine they put in it and what the emissions system and ECU will be. I do agree there is no need to emissions systems as complex as these to be included on small tractors, but what can a person do. Good luck trying to get around it - I think that will be nearly impossible. You have an engine that is fully electronically controlled.

Even warranty repairs, unless the dealer is willing to transport 100+ miles one way for free. I do have DPF. ECM, Fuel Injection, etc. I had some minor confusion with the DPF but running it harder than I need to has cleared things up. I do have a standard ODB2 interface on my LS and my high end scanner can pull and reset codes, nothing bad but helped my figure out how to keep the DPF and Regens happy. I can operate at 15-1800 to do most things but the tractor is happier at 18-2200 overall doing that work. Just learning curve on my part. My old Kubota just puttered along as needed.
Now I'm coming up on 6 years so warranty is not really in play anyway and like many DPF will go away if/when it gives me trouble.
I do have Kubota dealer 30 miles away but only see him IF he happens to stock a part I need. Mostly he has to order it and takes longer (and mo $$) than if I just order from Coleman or Messick.

Dealers not transporting warranty repairs for free is unfair, but the real problem is the manufacturers refuse to reimburse the dealers. If your car breaks under warranty, the manufacturer will cover the cost of the tow. So too should tractor manufacturers. I'm fortunate in having a way to transport my equipment, but I realize many are not.

I hear many people say that once their warranty runs out, the "DPF will go away." I don't think that is the case. The DPF will have two pressure sensors, one at the DPF inlet and one at the outlet. This is the method the tractor's engine ECU knows how full the DPF is and when to perform an active regen. With a clean DPF, the pressure difference between the inlet and outlet sensor will be very small. As the DPF fills up, the difference will widen with pressure increasing at the inlet. At a certain point, an active regen is initiated to clean the DPF, and the regen ends when the pressure sensors read close to the same value again. However, many ECUs will also initiate a time-based active regen to verify the accuracy of the sensors. Instead of waiting for the delta between the sensors to hit a tipping point, the system will activate a short regen to see if the inlet pressure sensor reading begins to drop. The purpose of this timed regen is so that a person cannot just cut off the DPF but leave the sensors to fool the tractor into never activating an active regen. The ECU cannot be removed which controls the DPF and regens, because its the same ECU that controls the fuel injection system. On a pickup that has been "deleted," a programmer is used to cancel out the active regen / timed function, and even to look for the sensors. However, such programmers are not available for tractors, and are illegal anyways. Additionally, tractors with DPFs may have other sensors...such as heat sensors...which feed info to the ECU for logic purposes to determine if the DPF is functioning properly. Unfortunately, if the ECU determines the DPF is not functioning properly, the tractor is often allowed only to idle.

I cannot understand people who think other brands are no-name because they personally don't know them. Using your logic, Kubota would never have penetrated the market as they were a no-name, too. So was John Deere at one point.

JD and Kubota also have crappy dealers. The root cause here is the bad dealer in Iowa. Everything else is just someone trying to help. Put your high horse back in the barn.

No high-horse here, and no offense was meant. I like Kubota because they make the tractor chassis, engine, and transmission themselves. Makes getting parts a lot easier. Even Deere uses Yanmar (Japanese) engines on virtually all their smaller tractors. I do think the "big name" tractors are overpriced and not as good of quality as they could or should be, but I also believe they are better quality than all the Korean and Indian tractors out there who largely source a mish-mash of components from a number of companies who might eventually go out of business and create parts and service issues in the future. An analogy with could be hand tools - you can buy Snap-On or something from Taiwan or China. Snap-On tools are well made and often beautifully finished and work very well, but they are wildly overpriced. The cheap tools might hold up just fine for many years. But oftentimes, the Snap-On tools last a lifetime, and the cheap tools break and need to be replaced, and aren't quite as nice to use anyway. And its easy to get warranty on tool-truck products but might be hard or impossible to get warranty of cheap tools. Just my opinion.

 

[Bobrown14]

The only negatives I considered with the LS were regen cycles (maybe 12-40 hours compared to 200+ with the Branson) and the lower lift height. The only issue I saw in two years of researching was the potential for the LS to go into limp mode for Regen, or for numerous sensors linked to the ECU motor. TYM has the Kukje diesel which doesn't have those electronics.

For folks with LS tractors and regen issues. In my case the only time I had a regen issue was when I bought cheap diesel at a local out of the way gas station. I had a few issues regen and a lot of smoke and limp mode.

After that I never buy diesel other than at our local Over the Road diesel stop TA. I havent had any more issues and in fact haven't had a regen for plus 50 hrs now.

Now that I wrote that I'll probably have a regen in the night plowing snow at its cold af.

 

[CloverKnollFarms]

Well, mechanically injected engines that TYM uses arent hobbled by the DPF… because the ECM only monitors the DPF, it does not perform any engine control functions. There is no limp mode or derate. They are the only manufacturer to my knowledge still using a mechanical Bosch injection system. You could literally place a muffler in place of the canister and the engine doesn’t know the difference. The ECM will, but it doesn’t control any part of the tractor outside of the DPF itself.

 

[tacticalturnip]

I've just got to toss it out there that if I were to buy an LS it would be a New Holland; the closest dealer started out selling Ford's before I was born, and New Holland seems to have a better handle on parts than LS does.

 

[Torvy]

I like Kubota because they make the tractor chassis, engine, and transmission themselves. Makes getting parts a lot easier. Even Deere uses Yanmar (Japanese) engines on virtually all their smaller tractors. I do think the "big name" tractors are overpriced and not as good of quality as they could or should be, but I also believe they are better quality than all the Korean and Indian tractors out there who largely source a mish-mash of components from a number of companies who might eventually go out of business and create parts and service issues in the future.

I'd do more research. TYM, Kioti and LS make their own engines, too. The only big difference between them and Kubota is really about how long they have been playing directly in the US market. In the 70s, people said the same ignorant garbage about Japanese cars and tractors.

The big positive for Kubota is the dealer network. That is something that is still growing for TYM. They are seriously committed to expanding and improving dealer quality. The new facility in Georgia will solve many of the logistics issues.

 

[51allis]

I would like to point out a couple of things:
1.) New Holland dealers will fix New Holland tractors under warranty, even if its just a NH-branded LS tractor. You will get the NH dealer and customer service experience, and possibly better parts availability because of this. NH dealers are not going to do any of those things for LS tractors, even if its the identical one to the NH.

2.) You say you wouldn't touch Kubota, yet in your signature you have a Land Pride implement, which is Kubota.



The emissions systems are absolutely part of the tractor. LS decides how to spec-build its machines, including which engine they put in it and what the emissions system and ECU will be. I do agree there is no need to emissions systems as complex as these to be included on small tractors, but what can a person do. Good luck trying to get around it - I think that will be nearly impossible. You have an engine that is fully electronically controlled.



Dealers not transporting warranty repairs for free is unfair, but the real problem is the manufacturers refuse to reimburse the dealers. If your car breaks under warranty, the manufacturer will cover the cost of the tow. So too should tractor manufacturers. I'm fortunate in having a way to transport my equipment, but I realize many are not.

I hear many people say that once their warranty runs out, the "DPF will go away." I don't think that is the case. The DPF will have two pressure sensors, one at the DPF inlet and one at the outlet. This is the method the tractor's engine ECU knows how full the DPF is and when to perform an active regen. With a clean DPF, the pressure difference between the inlet and outlet sensor will be very small. As the DPF fills up, the difference will widen with pressure increasing at the inlet. At a certain point, an active regen is initiated to clean the DPF, and the regen ends when the pressure sensors read close to the same value again. However, many ECUs will also initiate a time-based active regen to verify the accuracy of the sensors. Instead of waiting for the delta between the sensors to hit a tipping point, the system will activate a short regen to see if the inlet pressure sensor reading begins to drop. The purpose of this timed regen is so that a person cannot just cut off the DPF but leave the sensors to fool the tractor into never activating an active regen. The ECU cannot be removed which controls the DPF and regens, because its the same ECU that controls the fuel injection system. On a pickup that has been "deleted," a programmer is used to cancel out the active regen / timed function, and even to look for the sensors. However, such programmers are not available for tractors, and are illegal anyways. Additionally, tractors with DPFs may have other sensors...such as heat sensors...which feed info to the ECU for logic purposes to determine if the DPF is functioning properly. Unfortunately, if the ECU determines the DPF is not functioning properly, the tractor is often allowed only to idle.


No high-horse here, and no offense was meant. I like Kubota because they make the tractor chassis, engine, and transmission themselves. Makes getting parts a lot easier. Even Deere uses Yanmar (Japanese) engines on virtually all their smaller tractors. I do think the "big name" tractors are overpriced and not as good of quality as they could or should be, but I also believe they are better quality than all the Korean and Indian tractors out there who largely source a mish-mash of components from a number of companies who might eventually go out of business and create parts and service issues in the future. An analogy with could be hand tools - you can buy Snap-On or something from Taiwan or China. Snap-On tools are well made and often beautifully finished and work very well, but they are wildly overpriced. The cheap tools might hold up just fine for many years. But oftentimes, the Snap-On tools last a lifetime, and the cheap tools break and need to be replaced, and aren't quite as nice to use anyway. And its easy to get warranty on tool-truck products but might be hard or impossible to get warranty of cheap tools. Just my opinion.

My LS with the tier 4 engine has manual injection pump and manual injectors, there are some work arounds for controlling both the fuel pump (by passing the ECU controlling it) and front of the injector pump cable throttle work around (its actually posted on this site under "New Holland Boomer 37 in DPF Shutdown Mode"). After this would be done, its still ecu dependent because of the electronic solenoid on the back of the injection pump. This solenoid is responsible for the ECU controlling the throttle along with the electronic throttle controls. I haven't gotten a chance to work on my tractor yet, but I fully intend to remove the electronic solenoid on the back of the injection pump to figure out how it works, it has 12v signal probably for startup and then it also has "sensor 5v" connection which I think actually is what the ECU uses to control the solenoid for engine speed, if all else fails, I will make a throttle of some kind for the back of the injection pump probably utilizing the electronic solenoid with electronic part removed and manually operating the shaft. Once I figure out the electronic solenoid etc. I can then remove the dpf and the ecu and rewire most everything else, even if I have to install aftermarket gauges for engine temp, oil etc. the tractor should then be able to last me a long time. Sure people will say that I'm losing resale value, but I bought it with the intention of keeping it until I die etc. and more than likely, if I would trade it in, the next tractor will be even more complicated with more emissions/ecu crap, no thanks.

 

[troverman]

@Torvy I hope TYM improves and does great. More competition hopefully will mean better quality and prices for all. I knew that Kioti made at least some of their own (Daedong) engines. I also know that TYM and LS do not exclusively make all their own engines as some have other brand engines in them. Every Kubota diesel tractor has a Kubota made engine in it except the largest M8 tractor which uses a 6.7L Cummins. For me anyway, I know that many of the "light plant" construction site lights, along with many of the reefer units on insulated trailers use small Kubota diesel engines because they are very reliable and efficient. Now these same companies like Thermo-King, Carrier, Wacker-Neuson, Amida, etc, etc...could all choose a Daedong or Shibaura or LS or Yanmar, etc...but they pick Kubota because its the best combination of price, parts and service availability, reliability, and efficiency.

@51allis and @CloverKnollFarms, I guess I didn't realize there were stand-alone DPF equipped tractors still running mechanical injection. How does the DPF perform an active regen? Is there a separate fuel injector into the DPF with its own pump? Yes I agree, those could likely be bypassed. I'm surprised the EPA doesn't have a fool-proof on this like they do the others. Be very careful with a bypass and make sure the fuel shutdown solenoid is working properly and that you have means to prevent a runaway diesel scenario.