Antifreee question?

   / Antifreee question? #11  
That is correct DCA4 is a coating. Even CAT does not recommend using it and they developed the crap, actually if you use it on a new CAT the warranty is denied.
I have done thousands of engines and seen the damage done from using the wrong antifreeze, mixing the wrong additives. Using DCA4 with Power-cool or Power-cool plus destroys the additive package.
The Ford Gold stuff, they have problems with it plugging oil coolers, and eating the front cover, same as DCA4 and green coolant does in the old Cats.
I hate to see equipment destroyed because someone uses bad coolant.
You can use green antifreeze with a Nal-cool additive. That is what was used when it first came out and the difference between the damages from green and DCA4, and green and Nal-cool, was phenomenal.
My wife has a 1993 Caprice and I put in Nal-cool for years it still has the original aluminum radiator. It now has Dex-cool. and I did have to change the intake manifold gaskets.

What damage did you see from using the "wrong" coolant? Your bias is strong and does not help anyone who is needing to learn. Caterpillar did not develop DCA products but they do sell it. They do not deny warranty if you use an aftermarket consumable item like DCA4, Pencool 2000, Napa products, etc. They do state that if you use products not branded as "Caterpillar" to seek a remedy for any problem from that company. These statements I make are based on 42 years in the service business; 20 years with Caterpillar Tractor Co, Caterpillar, Inc and 22 years with Cummins.

As for Ford Motorcraft Premium Gold coolant (aka Zerex G-05) your statements that the coolant caused those issues are incorrect. While it is not the most robustly formulated HD coolant it still is a pretty good one. The front cover issue you speak of is likely an issue with high velocity coolant flow in an aluminum passage. Any coolant can cause erosion damage due to coolant flow velocity depending on passage geometry and coolant pump output. Aluminum is a very difficult metal to protect in a cooling system. Too many engineers fail to understand this.

What is your definition of 'bad' coolant? Using DCA4 with Power-cool or Power-cool plus destroys the additive package.
You are really in over your head making this and those other statements. Do you know the chemistry of DCA4, DCA2, Pencool, the first version of DDC Power Cool Plus, the second version of Power Cool Plus? I do. The stories put out by companies that you 'cannot mix additive packages' are to scare customers into using only their product. As one who works for a major coolant manufacturer, I can assure the rest of you that you can mix the above and get no adverse reactions or 'destruction'. For coolants such as the DDC Power Cool Plus which is now a nitrite-free OAT (organic acid technology) coolant. Adding conventional DCA or SCA will provide additional liner cavitation protection and compliment that coolant. DDC will tell you that the coolant needs no additional DCA to work. That is true but it is hard to determine if you have adequate protection as there is no simple test strips that work with that coolant.
 
   / Antifreee question? #12  
I am a licenced HD mechanic I got my licence in 1973, I have rebuilt thousands of engines.
Look up DCA4 it is a coating not one official place does it say protectant.
Cat will not cover damage done by DCA4, the directional nozzles eaten away in the heads the valves cooling area coated and insulated till the head cracks. liners destroyed because they are coated with the green crap,and cracked, Blocks corroded threw the "O" ring sealing area, Thermostat housing eaten completely threw. water pump covers eaten away. Liners so badly corroded they are porous, Blocks damaged from corrosion on the deck at the water grommet area.
Cummins will not cover Injector tubes eaten away, water by-pass tubes eaten away from the inside out.
These things did not happen on systems that were not treated these were units and problems on units that had water filters and were regularly tested and serviced.
 
   / Antifreee question? #13  
I am a licenced HD mechanic I got my licence in 1973, I have rebuilt thousands of engines.
Look up DCA4 it is a coating not one official place does it say protectant.
Cat will not cover damage done by DCA4, the directional nozzles eaten away in the heads the valves cooling area coated and insulated till the head cracks. liners destroyed because they are coated with the green crap,and cracked, Blocks corroded threw the "O" ring sealing area, Thermostat housing eaten completely threw. water pump covers eaten away. Liners so badly corroded they are porous, Blocks damaged from corrosion on the deck at the water grommet area.
Cummins will not cover Injector tubes eaten away, water by-pass tubes eaten away from the inside out.
These things did not happen on systems that were not treated these were units and problems on units that had water filters and were regularly tested and serviced.

You call it a 'coating'. Nobody else does. It is a supplemental coolant additive like several others on the market. SCA is used to increase the cavitation pitting resistance in glycol coolants. SCAs are replaced on a service interval basis as they are sacrificial chemicals. The action of the nitrite and molybdate additives is to chemically combine with the iron oxide on the coolant side of the cylinder wall. This hard 'coating' is microscopic and is not visible. It behaves much like a 'Kevlar jacket' (bullet resistant). Cavitation bubbles implode against this oxide film and damage it rather than the iron below. This is why these additives in either liquid form or in replaceable coolant filters are part of a PM service.

DCA4 does not cause that damage. The way you state that makes sound like you are a Caterpillar mechanic. No engine company will pay for cavitation pitting failures. Failure to use engine coolants and supplemental coolant additives is a maintenance fault of the owner. Those products and many like them will reduce or prevent cavitation failures. The 'directional' nozzles you speak of must be the water directors that Caterpillar uses on their cylinder heads (8 1/2 years as a field service mechanic for Cat, 6 years as a training instructor, need I go on?) shows you are a CAT guy. Nothing wrong with that but again, your bias is clouding your ability to help somebody who was asking what to do...not asking for some diatribe against a competitor product. Look up my bio. I do not have bias when it comes to matters like this. Solid information and not personal prejudice is what is needed on these forums.

For the sake of others reading this as I do not expect to change your views, let me cover the failure modes you describe.

Your description of the failure mode is more related to the water used to make coolant. Hard water is very likely to form scale deposits on high temperature coolant passages in cylinder heads. Wherever there is boiling heat transfer, there will be deposit formation especially from hard water (lime or calcium carbonate). That is the result of too little use of an SCA as most of them have scale inhibitors.

Block damage in the lower block bore O-ring zone. Block damage is a broad statement. Typically, the block damage is due to fret wear as the lower liner does experience side to side movement thus rubbing the liner that is harder than the block surface. Tighter block to liner clearance will reduce that but that is not something that can be adjusted. It is a design issue.

Lower O-ring damage. That would be the top O-ring which actually is experiencing crevice erosion failure. Liner pits and shredded liner top o-rings are due to the lower end of the liner moving side to side as the engine runs. The top ring flexes and changes from a compressed oval back to a more round shape. This causes coolant to be pumped in behind the o-ring along with core sand and dirt causing high velocity particle abrasion. Close examination of those pits will show the surfaces to be more polished than cavitation pits which are rough and jagged as the cavitation damage follows the grain structure of the liner. Caterpillar engines experience this more than other other brands. I have seen this failure mode in Cummins, as well, but not nearly to the extent that Cat has this issue.

Thermostat housing 'eaten through': Must be aluminum. Cast iron does not have that issue. Many engines have aluminum thermostat housings. Aluminum in this area is particularly subject to issues with coolant flow velocity and the issues is amplified when the coolant mix has more water. Water and aluminum only work together really well when the application is an aluminum boat or a beer can, not as part of a cooling system.

The three pictures at the bottom of this post are from an aluminum thermostat housing damaged by high coolant velocity and poor quality coolant or lack of sufficient glycol content. These are not issues caused by SCA like DCA4 and other brands.

Aluminum water pump covers experience the same issues but it usually happens faster as the turbulence in that area is much greater than in the thermostat housings. Again, the real cause is insufficient glycol content and insufficient supplemental coolant additives. Not warrantable failures.

Your statement about cylinder liners being so badly corroded that they are porous shows that you have not learned what cavitation pitting is. The failure mechanism is cavitation erosion. Cavitation is the impact result of a coolant vapor bubble that collapses against the cylinder wall during the power stroke on a diesel engine. Two things working together cause this. The first is the pressure wave that passes through the cylinder wall into the coolant that lowers the coolant pressure adjacent to the cylinder wall and the second is the vibration of the liner as the piston skirt slaps the cylinder wall after the piston starts downward on the power stroke (about 13 degrees after TDC is typical when it happens). That vibration causes the liner to ring like a tuning fork. The coolant cannot constantly keep in contact with the cylinder wall thus coolant vapor bubbles are formed. They collapse onto the surface with a measured force of 15,000 to 20,000 PSI. A hydraulic sledge hammer blow to the liner. It is not corrosion. It is due to insufficient use of SCA like Pencool, Cat SCA additives, DCA4 and other brands. Chemically all of these have a lot in common. The failure to use them and keep their strength up is the cause of these issues.

The last issue you speak of is the fire deck damage under the rubber water grommet. You ARE a Cat guy! :) That is called crevice corrosion and is due to stagnant coolant trapped under that grommet. The coolant becomes very acidic as there is no active coolant flow under the grommet. The acidic coolant corrodes the iron surface. It is the same failure mode on a Detroit Diesel copper injector cup and some other cups on other engines. Stagnant coolant trapped such that there is no active coolant flow to prevent coolant degradation. You always find this issue in high temperature areas of the engine like the cylinder head-to-block deck joint or the injector cups.

I do not doubt that you have seen these failures in four decades of service work. Your conclusion that DCA4 or any SCA causes these is wrong. Failure to use these chemical protectors on a regular basis and in sufficient amounts is the cause of many of these failures. The aluminum issues are more driven by lack of glycol content but not solely. As an example of this last statement, the DT466E uses an aluminum oil cooler housing. International up until last year used Shell Rotella ELC, an OAT coolant with nitrite. The housings experienced coolant passage pitting damage such that the coolant eroded a hole in the passages causing major failure issues. The coolants had 50/50 mixes. The culprit is (was) the organic acid inhibitor used (ethyl hexanoic acid). Coolant velocity in that housing had to be reduced in order for the housing to live with that coolant as it was the factory fill coolant required. CAT ELC is the same coolant essentially as the Rotella ELC. It has the same issues with aluminum as all OAT coolants using ethyl hexanoic acid have. CAT ELC works great in Caterpillar machines because they use steel core radiators, no aluminum.
 

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   / Antifreee question? #14  
All additives are an SCA DCA4 is a coating not a protectant, look it up. I take it you have seen the green coating on hot parts, If you look up DCA4 nowhere does it say it is a protectant it is 100% total crap.
If it was a good product Cat would not have sent out bulletins saying not to use it in the asserts.
The first time I saw Nal-cool was a Customer went to a trade show and was sold a case of the Additive bottles about a pint. We had a large quantity of chip trucks that were serviced at our shop they all had 3406B's at that time. We had sold about a dozen trucks all exactly the same. They did a flush on the one guys three new trucks, and added green antifreeze and Nal-cool, with a 0 water filter. At about 600,000miles to 700,000 miles I had two of them apart, for blown head gaskets, normal thing. One with the Nalcool one with the DCA I was not involved with the servicing so I did not think anything about it. Both heads were sent out to be modified and I pulled the kits to cut 4,5&6 liners that were sunk. That is when I saw the difference and asked what was going on, one set of liners looked like Swiss cheese, the other like new, We use to buy a new water pump cover as a standard replacement part. The one was corroded away one was like new, one's water filter was full or a gray powder one was clean.
He gave me a bottle and I used it in my units ever since. These trucks hauled chips 144,000lbs over two mountains. 11 hours, a trip two trips a day, two drivers. I have been to most every Cat course and Detroit some Cummins. Because I worked at a truck dealership and they trusted me I worked on new engines long before the engine dealer did.
I do not care what a person does with his own unit, but to tell someone to use a product that is crap that I do not understand.
 
   / Antifreee question? #15  
lookout.. the sky is falling.

sorry.. figured it was better than the broken record.

now back to the heritical ranting... ;)


soundguy
 
   / Antifreee question? #16  
lookout.. the sky is falling.

sorry.. figured it was better than the broken record.

now back to the heritical ranting... ;)


soundguy

Yep the sky is falling, it's raining Green, red, yellow, pink & gold. The only one missing is the good old Cat Purple stuff. Just got a case to use in my stuff.
A lot of very good information in the above posts. The only thing missing is what water to mix with the coolant if it's not a pre-mix.
 
   / Antifreee question? #17  
Yep the sky is falling, it's raining Green, red, yellow, pink & gold. The only one missing is the good old Cat Purple stuff. Just got a case to use in my stuff.
A lot of very good information in the above posts. The only thing missing is what water to mix with the coolant if it's not a pre-mix.

At least it isn't the 'clean pond water' that my old manuals from t he 30's 40's and 50's state to use :)

Same amnuals reccomend adding a quart of kerosene to the gear oil in the winter too! :)

soundguy
 
   / Antifreee question? #18  
JohnP33, thanks for the interesting time. I never expected to change you. One does not teach an old dog new tricks. Do you remember the first 3406 A models that were PCTA, PreChamber Turbo Aftercooler? I go back before that to the days of the 1674, 1693 TA. As for Caterpillar "not allowing it in their 'asserts' (SIC), it is ACERT, Advanced Combustion Emission Reduction Technology.

As Caterpillar not allowing the use of DCA4, it would be much more accurate to say that Caterpillar does not approve of anything not branded as 'Caterpillar'. I like to say that if CAT could brand intake air and diesel fuel, they would only approve of their brand of air and fuel!

If DCA4 by Fleetguard was such 'crap' there would be a lot of Cummins with the issues you describe in your Caterpillar/Nalcool rant. But they do not have those issues so it must be that instead of DCA4 not working, it just does not meet your high standards. You are more concerned how a product is listed and keep saying for people to look it up. You produce the document that you speak of. Show these other folks on here your documentation and not just your limited opinion.

For everybody else, what is in DCA4 or the Baldwin equivalent, BTA additive? Both are supplemental coolant additives as are CAT's product or Pencool. DCA4 and BTA have nitrite and molybdate (a compound of the metal molybdenum) as the primary pitting inhibitors. There is other chemistry for prevention or reduction of scale formation when used in hard water plus buffers to counteract the expected downward slide of coolant pH. What does Cat additive have and Caterpillar Diesel Engine Antifreeze Coolant? Funny, they use the same 'crap' you are damning! Don't you just hate when they do that. We recently analyzed CAT DEAC to see if they have changed anything. Surprise! Surprise! as Gomer Pyle said. They have changed their formulation to be almost an exact copy of Fleetguard coolant, Fleetcool EX, nitrite, molybdate inhibitors with borate buffer and silicate.

Caterpillar's Preferred engine coolant for truck engines and construction engines is CAT ELC, an extended life OAT coolant with........Nitrite and Molybdate! Darn, John, they have done it to you again! You ought to keep up with that stuff since you know what CAT does and does not recommend. Caterpillar has an 'acceptable' coolant, ANY coolant meeting ASTM D6210. There are a lot of those and they are not branded CAT. I can produce the document that states Caterpillar's coolant recommendations. Let's see your document that you keep telling us to 'look up'.

Good news, John, I will not pester you any more. Thanks for a good time. Your remarks ahve served well to point out that while you may see the evidence of something, you do not really know the causes. There is much more to the Tale of Two CATs than "one used Nalcool and the other used DCA4."

Soundguy, I have appreciated your posts all along. NOW, back to lurking in the shadows until another 'John' comes along! I suffer from the 'kill and eat' syndrome.

Merry Christmas to all.....and to all a Good Night!

FieldServiceEngineer
 
   / Antifreee question? #19  
gonna be baking all day tomorrow for a dinner at my cousins house, then again part of sunday morning for dinner at my place... can't wait. :)

merry christmas!

soundguy
 
   / Antifreee question? #20  
I have a quick question for FSE: Kabota just asks for permant antifreeze for my little BX24. I could find no specs other than that. I put in some green low silicate antifreeze, 4985 I believe. Should I add some SCA to it.

Thanks
 
 
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