Dual Brakes on an HST tractor

[TripleR]

I think the damage potential to the front/rear differential while using split brakes is way overstated. When I am in 4wd and pushing a loader bucket the front wheels often are turning at different rates (one slipping while the other is not turning). If I'm using a boxblade on uneven terrain, the front will be pulled/pushed left or right easily unless I use the split brakes to hold the path true. Mostly, I'm trying to use my brakes to hold my tractor in a straight line or compensate for uneven traction when in soft dirt or mud on one side only.

My front end gets pushed all over the place by just normal use of rear ground engaging implements and front loader work. If a dealer told me I should not use the installed split brakes on my tractor, I'd suspect he had warranty issues and is trying to cover for a design issue. Do you suppose that same dealer might accuse me of using split brakes if I brought my tractor to him for a front differential repair under warranty?:thumbdown: Not using split brakes for high speed turns makes all kinds of sense, but not using them to hold the tractor straight when you are in 4WD makes no sense to me whatsoever.:confused3: Of course, trying to use split brakes when you have differential lock engaged is just asking for trouble. It's impossible to do both at the same time.

It also makes good sense to me to use split brakes to help track perfectly where you are turning instead of the letting the front end understeer and keep going straight. Making the tractor go where the wheels are pointed seems to be normal to me. If understeer never happens to you, then you surely don't need to use split brakes.

I don't worry about it personally, I think we are just wondering why one manufacturer specifically says not to.

 

[jinman]

I don't worry about it personally, I think we are just wondering why one manufacturer specifically says not to.

Exactly! Especially when they make the brakes capable of being split and then say don't do it.

The idea that using split brakes is any different on an HST tractor than a gear tractor doesn't hold water either. Every HST I am aware of drives a gearbox that is shiftable through two or three ranges. The HST never drives the differential directly.

 

[TripleR]

Exactly! Especially when they make the brakes capable of being split and then say don't do it.

The idea that using split brakes is any different on an HST tractor than a gear tractor doesn't hold water either. Every HST I am aware of drives a gearbox that is shiftable through two or three ranges. The HST never drives the differential directly.

Agreed, I use split brakes on our geared M8540 much more than my L5030, but have no concerns about damage on either one and there are no advisories against this in either manual.

 

[boggen]

allis chalmers CA 1954 2wd. small front end (like a tricycle) but front has 2 small wheels and setup for field use basically. has a belly finishing. the small front end allows Pin point turns quickly and easily. ((talk about quick turns around a tree. no need to take 4 fully circles around a tree to mow up along all sides.)) with left and right brake pedals i get even a quicker tighter turn. granted if grass is wet i will tear up yard. but when it is dry. i will hit left or right in a second for a quick tighter turn. more so in spots were all i have is 8 feet turn around space (rock drive way) i will tear some rock up a little as one of the rear tires locks completely up and entire tractor pivots on that rear tractor tire and the front tires do the actual twisting of the tractor. but after 100 plus turns 30 or more seconds saved in quick turns adds up fairly quickly. more so when ya have many acres to mow.

still going with the allis chalmers CA. it has a 2 bottom plow and a disc. if i put in a small garden say 1/2 acre. the plow and disc set low enough to the ground that when i try to turn around, i end up taking out more good grass vs area i want garden in. so being able to hit the left or right peddle to turn makes for less yard tearing up.

when plowing, and say i hit a hard patch of soil. being able to hit the left or right brake peddle. can allow the rear tires squirm itself out and keep on going.

i did a badly mad rear snow blade for the allis chalmers. R1 filled tires (not sure with what, came that way). and to use it, you have to go in reverse. tractor simply does not have enough weight. and any more weight on rear blade = hyd not being able to lift up blade. so in deeper drifts. i have to get a little running start and gun the throttle and ram into some areas. front wheels are useless on ice. so i have to steer with steering brakes.

the many times i have gotten stuck either in mud or snow or ice. being able to tap left or right brake pedals. allowed me maintain both wheels spinning and putting traction to the ground. vs just one wheel spinning. ((slowly moving throttle up and knowing tractor and brakes is a must, or you learn quickly))

for this tractor 4 wheel drive would most likely mean a wide front end. i would kick myself in the rear. and end up having a worse tractor. due to it is primary for mowing. and acts just like a zero turn mower. but more horse power and options for taller grass and better traction than a zero turn mower.

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ford / new holland 555c Tractor / Loader / Backhoe. listed as a construction tractor vs a farm tractor / utility tractor.

2 wheel drive, shuttle shift, 4 gears same speed forward or backwards. R4 rear tires. foot throttle on right. left and rear brake peddles left. shuttle shift up near steering wheel. with differential lock. it has a hand lever with ease of reach when seat is turned to use backhoe so you can set throttle of tractor. in a sense it is a cruise control like option for the tractor as well. (( though can be a very dangerous cruise control almost found out a couple times *is not laughing*))

differential lock on this tractor is explained in the manual as. when press does not lock tires together so they turn at same speed regardless. but will send power to wheel not spinning or wheel going at slower speed and less power to wheel spinning faster. to help get out of stuck like situations.

i use left and right brake peddles when using FEL to back drag / grade rock drive way or dirt lanes or smooth out a section of yard or dirt pile. do to a good portion of the time front wheels are off the ground. or i know i can not rely on the front wheels to turn me. so i automatically rely on left and right steering brake peddles to turn me. (to many IFs that come up)

when i am plowing snow with the FEL. i will use left and brake peddles along with using front wheels to help steer on ice or if i get myself into deep snow drifts front wheels may touch ground and turn me. but on ice can just keep on sliding. than and sometimes i mis judge and put FEL down to much and raise front wheels off ground.

when i am stuck in mud. i generally stop tires completely, go to idle on throttle. slowly gain more throttle keeping eye on rear tires if one begins to slow down i tap on the other tire brake peddle so i can maintain power and traction on both tires. while at same time curling the bucket up and lowering or raising the FEL to keep pressure at cutting of the bucket to push / pull me out of a spot.

when i really get stuck. i lower out riggers no all the way to ground but a few inches away from ground. and brake out the backhoe to lift rear end of tractor up and move it over. or i stab the bucket into the ground. and push or pull the tractor along with FEL and left and right brake peddles. to get myself out of bad stuck situations.

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i would honestly love if i went a 4wd version of a ford / new holland 555c tractor loader backhoe. But i doubt i would use it all the time. only when needed.

examples FEL digging. or rather digging up compacted dirt and kinda skimming a few inches of dirt off at a time.

the allis chalmers CA has a snap coupler setup and not a 3pt hitch setup (1954 tractor) and i do not want to spend cash on a snap coupler to 3 pt conversion unit. so this limits me to no 3 pt implements so i am primarily left at moment using the FEL on the 555c to clear driveways of snow. granted 555c has shuttle shift. but many times on hills and if they have just enough "wet ice" i end up sliding down side ways down the hill. in order to keep direction i want to push snow. i end up assisting the front wheels turning me with the left and right rear brake peddles. would chains help yes some. with 4wd drive help some yes. would i still need left and right brake peddles, without a doubt yes. when that heavy rear end starts to slide. the entire tractor goes with it. and if 4wd drive front tires are on wet ice as well. i would end up on road way and most likely needing to call 911 do to either i slid into a vehicle or a vehicle could not stop in time and hit me.

help getting unstuck. when i got stuck in 2wd. to be honest. 4wd would only get me more stuck and possibly permanently stuck. were backhoe and FEL and 4wd drive and differential lock and left and right brake pedals would not get me out of. i been in some pretty nasty situations.

But! 4wd in the mud and turning would be a very big plus. it might of just rain and ground is mush and wet. and with just having 2wd the front tires will kinda skid across the ground vs turning me. if i had 4wd drive. most likely i would be able to keep on turning and going.

But! even if i had 4wd half the time i would most likely need to assist the front wheels turning with left and right brake peddles. due to most likely heavy rear end of this tractor with r4 tires would slide out from under me on some hills it does it already on me even on soft slight slops in mud. granted front wheels would help pull the rear end and keep it from sliding as much on some hills. but still some sliding would occur (no need for me to guess, i know the rear end would slide out). and being able to hit a left or right brake peddle. so a tire spins a little bit faster to pull rear end back to were i want it. is a very big plus at least for me.

i honestly do not like 4 wheel drive all the time. it can cause a larger turning radius or i should say force a larger turning radius. many times i have gotten myself into situations. were i need to lock up a rear tire and pivot on it. while the other rear tire spins me around. kinda like a zero turn mower, if i did not have this option, then most likely A i would need a new vehicle, B need to build a new outside wall on house, C get some new metal siding for shed, D need a crane to lift me out of a lake or creek i would of ended up in and on my side or upside down.

i am not debating 2wd drive vs 4wd drive, or dual steering brakes, or differential lock. but saying. having 4wd drive, left and right rear steering brakes, differential lock is very very nice thing to have. and to be able to use one foot for brakes and other for throttle / HST peddle. is also a very needed thing for me.

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4wd drive does not mean. all 4 wheels turn and have power. you get power to one front wheel and one rear wheel. if you have differential lock set. then you get power to one front wheel and both back wheels.

and if you are good enough and take your time. so the front hub does not send all power to one wheel and do same thing for rear wheels you can get all 4 wheels to spin and get almost equal power to all 4 wheels. but try doing that on the spot and 1 second to make up your mind. and all it takes is just that one little bump and you loose that equalness in the hubs and you end up with only 1 front wheel spinning and 1 rear wheel spinning exception differential lock set then 1 front wheel and both rear wheels.

when your in those situations being able to tap left or right brake peddle to get one of the rear wheels to spin a little fast or to maintain equal turning / spinning. while using left hand to turn steering wheel right hand to operate FEL, left foot for brake peddles, right foot for throttle / HST peddle. and keep adjusting everything for a few minutes as you work your way down the hill. for me is very needed. if i was not able to do this, it would take me a min 3 times longer.

for me, 4 hour snow fall normally middle of night can = 5 foot snow drifts in multi spots along the drive way. a rear blade, just would not be able to handle the drifts come morning time. normally to wet and a full bucket of compacted snow can be a strain on the FEL at times just lifting it up. let alone bulldozing the snow off to the sides of the drive.

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to be honest i think i would hate having a single joystick and would want min of 2 joy sticks, 1 joy stick for front tires to control speed of each tire and what direction they rotate, and 1 joystick for rear tires. and each tire was independent of how fast each one moved. this would free up my feet to say control a FEL left foot curl of bucket right foot arms of FEL. perhaps a dial that changed what each joystick did. operate FEL while other operated speed of all 4 tires and turning of front tires.

there would be no need for differential lock, 2wd to 4wd drive shift, possibly a gear shift lever. or perhaps top thumb button on front joy stick tires to change gears up and top thumb button on rear joy stick to change gears down. perhaps a trigger button on one of the joysticks for engine throttle. when i say change gears. more likely changing gears for a hyd pump so it would pump higher rate of fluid at less pressure ((say for a road gear)) and then lower rate of fluid but higher pressure for say low ground engaging gear, with a couple gears in between.

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regardless to me, it is about getting unstuck once i get stuck. not a question if i will get stuck. because i will push my limits and get stuck. and if i have the skills and patients if need be to learn quickly and get myself unstuck. though sometimes it takes me a half day or perhaps 2 days to get unstuck. *whistles innocently* and some times requires me to get off tractor and scratch my head thinking what in the world was i thinking and looking around hoping no one has a camera or cell phone handy. that or hope there making more fun of me and laughing than taking a picture.

and the art of getting unstuck for me or making so i do not get in a bigger accident is being able to control speed of all 4 tires if possible independent of each other. kinda like them rock climbing jeeps / vehicles. that go up almost a straight vertical wall. or go up and over rocks twice the size of a vehicle for true off road experience. (left foot peddle 1 wheel, right foot peddle other wheel) hand lever on steering wheel for 1 wheel and other hand lever on steering wheel for the final 4th wheel.)

 

[boggen]

I think the damage potential to the front/rear differential while using split brakes is way overstated. When I am in 4wd and pushing a loader bucket the front wheels often are turning at different rates (one slipping while the other is not turning). If I'm using a boxblade on uneven terrain, the front will be pulled/pushed left or right easily unless I use the split brakes to hold the path true. Mostly, I'm trying to use my brakes to hold my tractor in a straight line or compensate for uneven traction when in soft dirt or mud on one side only.

My front end gets pushed all over the place by just normal use of rear ground engaging implements and front loader work. If a dealer told me I should not use the installed split brakes on my tractor, I'd suspect he had warranty issues and is trying to cover for a design issue. Do you suppose that same dealer might accuse me of using split brakes if I brought my tractor to him for a front differential repair under warranty?:thumbdown: Not using split brakes for high speed turns makes all kinds of sense, but not using them to hold the tractor straight when you are in 4WD makes no sense to me whatsoever.:confused3: Of course, trying to use split brakes when you have differential lock engaged is just asking for trouble. It's impossible to do both at the same time.

It also makes good sense to me to use split brakes to help track perfectly where you are turning instead of the letting the front end understeer and keep going straight. Making the tractor go where the wheels are pointed seems to be normal to me. If understeer never happens to you, then you surely don't need to use split brakes.

been there done that. on the 555c. though 555c, does not lock the axles together / tires together. but in manual notes it sends power to wheel not spinning as fast. i set the throttle with the hand control lever used for backhoe operation. step on differential lock with right foot. left hand on steering wheel. right hand on FEL joystick. and left foot on left or right foot peddle some times or both brakes at same time.

when i need to stop and keep from slipping further in one direction i will smash those brakes. granted the hydrostatic transmission takes a beating with slippage. but if i am in a tight spot and need to send power to opposite wheel for a moment i will hit left or right brake peddle.

now if the given make / model of tractor with differential lock, locked both rear tires together so the spin regardless at same speed. hitting left or right peddle would only slow down the tires or rather put extra strain the engine would have to over come. but.... if you were in leaving streaks of rubber in your vehicle when you were young, or perhaps drifting or like. folks do it there foot down on gas, and a foot down on brakes.

been in a few situations were i had rear tires spinning so fast that you could tell the physical diameter of the tires got longer and tires got skinner. as the tires ate into the mud in front of them and sent it flying to the rear, and it left some rubber on the mud and bottom side of the fenders. rev up that engine, un load the clutch while on the brakes then releasing skipping along the gushy mud. as the tires hit hard spots of ground to gain traction to get a little actual more movement in speed.

 

[Charlesaf3]

I don't find having the split brakes and the HST treadle both on the right bothers me at all (kubota). I rarely use the split brakes with the treadle - much less need, I have to be in really tight spaces. When I do need them, I just put both of my size 14 feet on the right - no big deal.

I think if I used the split brakes all the time I might not like that arrangement, but honestly HST on the Kubota allows fine enough adjustments in my experience that I've no problem with the current arrangement.

On that front I LOVE the treadle. Though it gets me into trouble when I get off the tractor and get into the pickup, and try to go back with my heel... that's going to get me into trouble one day, and I completely understand why people one to stick with one system, whatever it is.

 

[RobertN]

That's almost verbatim what I said Now that I have this New Holland with split brakes on the left, HST on the right, I have really been changing my mind.

I did like the treadle on my old Kubota though.

I don't find having the split brakes and the HST treadle both on the right bothers me at all (kubota). I rarely use the split brakes with the treadle - much less need, I have to be in really tight spaces. When I do need them, I just put both of my size 14 feet on the right - no big deal.

I think if I used the split brakes all the time I might not like that arrangement, but honestly HST on the Kubota allows fine enough adjustments in my experience that I've no problem with the current arrangement.

On that front I LOVE the treadle. Though it gets me into trouble when I get off the tractor and get into the pickup, and try to go back with my heel... that's going to get me into trouble one day, and I completely understand why people one to stick with one system, whatever it is.

 

[art]

I hope that all of you have good luck with steering with the brakes!

I read a lot of comparisons in the posts and some of you know how I feel already as its's not my first day here and not the first disscussion about it.

To start there are many variables with tractors both new and old and there are some good amounts of differences in turning circles from one make to the other just on new ones alone much less going back twenty years. So some makes migh be a bit more manuverable to eliminate the need to!

Proper balance for a two wheel drive tractor is 25% front and 75% on the rear.
Four wheel drives put another ten percent on the front to 35% and 65% on the rear and that doesn't include loader weight.

There are some compact tractors that have had problems just with loaded loader buckets and not even needing the brakes to help break steering linkages.

We get to see some big ag ones too!

I find it rare that I have the front tires off the ground while digging or grading to maximumize the efficency of the tractor so I am normally making a loader adjustment over adding brakes to the equasion. I also realize that not all situations are the same.

I do not recommend to use the brakes as a method of steering! If this has to be done on a regular basis then the tractor is not set-up right to begin with or it is not set-up to your conditions.

I've seen hubs broke, tie rod ends broke and the arms they attach to.
Everyone has their story but overall I have seen what the stress of steering with brakes can do.

Just like drags links below the front axles get bent and or break ball joints when straddling stones or tree stumps. People still buy them built that way!!!!

PS, for some strange reason I can only think of a couple of parts that got replaced under warrantee from brake steer. Normally they are in the five plus range unless used in the woods.

 

[ovrszd]

Art, I've read all the posts in this thread. There's been very few if any examples of users posting here that use their brakes specifically for steering. I agree with your comments about the possibility of damage if used in that manner.

On the other side of that. Most of this thread's comments are about using individual brakes to assist steering in abnormal situations.

For example. 99.9% of the time my tractor will go where I point the front tires with no brake assistance. When it won't I find myself in a abnormal situation.

If my tractor has the capability to utilize individual brakes easily, within a couple seconds, I have moved beyond that situation and am back in the 99.9% category.

If my tractor does not have that capability I will spend the next minute or longer manipulating the tractor around within the situation to get it to complete the task without utilizing individual brakes.

If you are an operator that never finds yourself in that type situation I concur that you don't need individual brake use ability. If you are an operator (me) that finds yourself in that situation every time you go to the timber you definitely need that ability.

As I mentioned earlier, my Brother In Law mows his relatively flat lawn with his NH and says it's no big deal to him to not be able to use his brakes. But I can't live like that.

 

[TripleR]

Art, I've read all the posts in this thread. There's been very few if any examples of users posting here that use their brakes specifically for steering. I agree with your comments about the possibility of damage if used in that manner.

On the other side of that. Most of this thread's comments are about using individual brakes to assist steering in abnormal situations.

For example. 99.9% of the time my tractor will go where I point the front tires with no brake assistance. When it won't I find myself in a abnormal situation.

If my tractor has the capability to utilize individual brakes easily, within a couple seconds, I have moved beyond that situation and am back in the 99.9% category.

If my tractor does not have that capability I will spend the next minute or longer manipulating the tractor around within the situation to get it to complete the task without utilizing individual brakes.

If you are an operator that never finds yourself in that type situation I concur that you don't need individual brake use ability. If you are an operator (me) that finds yourself in that situation every time you go to the timber you definitely need that ability.

As I mentioned earlier, my Brother In Law mows his relatively flat lawn with his NH and says it's no big deal to him to not be able to use his brakes. But I can't live like that.

I forgot, is your 4400 geared or HST?