Mowing PTO won't disengage when using brush hog

[k0ua]

it is very difficult for me to believe the the overunning clutch was removed from later models.. I am just having a real problem with that. That sounds like a cock and bull story to me. Yes old ford tractors from 70 years ago did not have overunning clutches, but a lot of stupid things were done 70 years ago. And a lot of those tractors were shoved into fences, and over embankments etc too. I realize the number of CK20 sold as manual transmissions are probably small as the majority of them are sold with the independent PTO on the hydrostat model. But still if you are going to offer a manual transmission model with a PTO it should be safe! And then to design it with an overrunning clutch, and obviously many out there have them, and now we are to believe they just took it out? If this is true it is lawsuit time.

 

[rider7767]

For rider7767 (post 14): Can you provide a reference for a legal requirement for the overrunning clutch? I don't doubt the requirement, I just don't know where to look.

For fsrtraveler: If Kioti is in violation of OSHA or legal requirements, burn them. Personally, I think you have a broken tractor and you are being fed a line of crap from the clowns in Wendell NC. This is not any kind of sight on tar heels in general. If I look at the online parts diagram (Parts Diagram) parts 12, 14, and 15 sure look like an over-running clutch to me. The parts diagram does not indicate any alternate configurations. We have all seen errors in Kioti documentation, but discontinuing this clutch would be awful stupid. I don't think Koreans are that stupid. It's a lot easier to believe the Kioti US people are lying. You still need to get that external clutch until this gets sorted out. As several folks have noted, this is dangerous and it's probably the reason you can't disengage the PTO.

The best I can find for now. https://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=STANDARDS&p_id=10958 or ISO Standards ICS 65.060.10: Agricultural Tractors and Trailed Vehicles.

My tractor's internal PTO overrun clutch is working so I cannot make a complaint; however, you can! https://www.osha.gov/pls/osha7/eComplaintForm.html

 

[rider7767]

it is very difficult for me to believe the the overunning clutch was removed from later models.. I am just having a real problem with that. That sounds like a cock and bull story to me. Yes old ford tractors from 70 years ago did not have overunning clutches, but a lot of stupid things were done 70 years ago. And a lot of those tractors were shoved into fences, and over embankments etc too. I realize the number of CK20 sold as manual transmissions are probably small as the majority of them are sold with the independent PTO on the hydrostat model. But still if you are going to offer a manual transmission model with a PTO it should be safe! And then to design it with an overrunning clutch, and obviously many out there have them, and now we are to believe they just took it out? If this is true it is lawsuit time.

You said it!

 

[rider7767]

Thank you Tony. I see you have a CK20S and that is what I was looking for. So does your tractor stop on its own when you depress the main clutch before the brush hog stops spinning. On mine I have to press the brake hard and that will stop the mower and the brush hog at the same time and I have to do this before shifting.
My Kioti shop manual shows an overrunning clutch built in the unit but the USA Kioti office in NC says I don't have one and so does my dealer. I hate to buy something to add if I already have one built in. The tractor is under warranty so I prefer getting the dealer fix the problem if I have an overriding clutch built in as the manual shows.

What year was your tractor built?

 

[LD1]

Before you decide to go any further and/or press the legal issue, I would get it in writing that kiotiUSA told you they removed the ORC, and didnt update any of the manuals, or online diagrams, or even notify the dealers.


I'd be curious to see a kioti dealer chime in here or something. Cause I agree with k0ua. Sounds like they are feeding you BS.

 

[SPYDERLK]

Before you decide to go any further and/or press the legal issue, I would get it in writing that kiotiUSA told you they removed the ORC, and didnt update any of the manuals, or online diagrams, or even notify the dealers.


I'd be curious to see a kioti dealer chime in here or something. Cause I agree with k0ua. Sounds like they are feeding you BS.

:thumbsup: ... Or change design so the ORC was not required.

 

[KiotiJason]

I've got a DS3510 manual gear box it's a 2013 and I have never experienced anything like a Pto over running clutch. I also own and gave driven a Fordson Power Major and again never experienced it. I don't really understand how it can happen with a two stage clutch. Once you go all of the way down it disengages the Pto and you can put out of gear or stop. I'm not remotely mechanical and when I read the first post I assumed it was some type of clutch problem....

 

[rider7767]

I've got a DS3510 manual gear box it's a 2013 and I have never experienced anything like a Pto over running clutch. I also own and gave driven a Fordson Power Major and again never experienced it. I don't really understand how it can happen with a two stage clutch. Once you go all of the way down it disengages the Pto and you can put out of gear or stop. I'm not remotely mechanical and when I read the first post I assumed it was some type of clutch problem....

The CK20S manual does not have a 2 stage clutch.

 

[k0ua]

I've got a DS3510 manual gear box it's a 2013 and I have never experienced anything like a Pto over running clutch. I also own and gave driven a Fordson Power Major and again never experienced it. I don't really understand how it can happen with a two stage clutch. Once you go all of the way down it disengages the Pto and you can put out of gear or stop. I'm not remotely mechanical and when I read the first post I assumed it was some type of clutch problem....

Let me take a shot at explaining the problem. With a 2 stage clutch like you are used to, there is no problem, because as you let out the clutch a little bit the first thing to engage is the PTO, and you can wait for the implement to "spin up" before you let out some more to engage the final drive and make the tractor move. Likewise if you press in on the clutch the tractor can be brought to a smooth stop while the implement mass is still engaged and being driven by the engine. Again no problem and this is a pretty good system. Now, that said, the cheaper tractors, like my old Kubota B7500 and the Kioti CK20S both with standard transmissions never had 2 stage clutches for PTO operation.

They just have transmission driven PTO's with a single stage clutch.. You let out the clutch the tractor begins to move and the PTO implement starts to spin up. Not worth a crap for baling hay, or rotary cutting for that matter. You need to start a rotary cutter raised up a bit so you don't choke it immediately until it gets spun up.

The bigger and heavier the cutter the worse it is. BUT they are supposed to be safe in that as you push the clutch in to change gears or for any reason, the over running clutch built into the PTO drive line does not allow the spinning mass of the implement to drive the rear wheels with power to continue moving the tractor forward even though the engine is disengaged from the driveline by the main single stage clutch being pushed in. The "ratcheting or clicking" sound you hear is the overrunning clutch doing it's job.

The overrunning clutch is supposed to allow power to be transferred from the transmission but NOT back into the transmission from the spinning mass.

Some of the old Fords, from 70 years ago did not have any internal overrunning clutch, and they exhibited the same problem the OP is talking about. The inability to stop the "darn" tractor when the clutch is pushed in and he is standing on the brakes and the tractor is still moving until the energy in the spinning mass is converted to heat by the brake pads.

This is very dangerous, and caused injuries or even fatalities back "in the day".. It ain't supposed to happen in 2014.

 

[rider7767]

Let me take a shot at explaining the problem. With a 2 stage clutch like you are used to, there is no problem, because as you let out the clutch a little bit the first thing to engage is the PTO, and you can wait for the implement to "spin up" before you let out some more to engage the final drive and make the tractor move. Likewise if you press in on the clutch the tractor can be brought to a smooth stop while the implement mass is still engaged and being driven by the engine. Again no problem and this is a pretty good system. Now, that said, the cheaper tractors, like my old Kubota B7500 and the Kioti CK20S both with standard transmissions never had 2 stage clutches for PTO operation.

They just have transmission driven PTO's with a single stage clutch.. You let out the clutch the tractor begins to move and the PTO implement starts to spin up. Not worth a crap for baling hay, or rotary cutting for that matter. You need to start a rotary cutter raised up a bit so you don't choke it immediately until it gets spun up.

The bigger and heavier the cutter the worse it is. BUT they are supposed to be safe in that as you push the clutch in to change gears or for any reason, the over running clutch built into the PTO drive line does not allow the spinning mass of the implement to drive the rear wheels with power to continue moving the tractor forward even though the engine is disengaged from the driveline by the main single stage clutch being pushed in. The "ratcheting or clicking" sound you hear is the overrunning clutch doing it's job.

The overrunning clutch is supposed to allow power to be transferred from the transmission but NOT back into the transmission from the spinning mass.

Some of the old Fords, from 70 years ago did not have any internal overrunning clutch, and they exhibited the same problem the OP is talking about. The inability to stop the "darn" tractor when the clutch is pushed in and he is standing on the brakes and the tractor is still moving until the energy in the spinning mass is converted to heat by the brake pads.

This is very dangerous, and caused injuries or even fatalities back "in the day".. It ain't supposed to happen in 2014.

Very well put