Mowing PTO won't disengage when using brush hog

[boggen]

The best I can find for now. https://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=STANDARDS&p_id=10958 or ISO Standards ICS 65.060.10: Agricultural Tractors and Trailed Vehicles.

My tractor's internal PTO overrun clutch is working so I cannot make a complaint; however, you can! https://www.osha.gov/pls/osha7/eComplaintForm.html

the problem with OSHO. is that it is required for a company to provide X doing. if you are using it for personal doings. and using it yourself. OSHO rules do not apply, correct? or do things kick in, as soon as someone else jumps on the seat?

on other hand. if product was marketed, with ORC (over running clutch), and it does not have one.... someone is in trouble.

 

[rider7767]

the problem with OSHO. is that it is required for a company to provide X doing. if you are using it for personal doings. and using it yourself. OSHO rules do not apply, correct? or do things kick in, as soon as someone else jumps on the seat?

on other hand. if product was marketed, with ORC (over running clutch), and it does not have one.... someone is in trouble.

OSHA starts as soon as it comes in the country. 20 hp and above. The manufacturer has no idea who is going to buy it, company or personal. Furthermore, farmers are protect under OSHA. Even though it may have been bought for personal use, Kioti (company) is not relieved from the responsibility.

 

[KiotiJason]

Let me take a shot at explaining the problem. With a 2 stage clutch like you are used to, there is no problem, because as you let out the clutch a little bit the first thing to engage is the PTO, and you can wait for the implement to "spin up" before you let out some more to engage the final drive and make the tractor move. Likewise if you press in on the clutch the tractor can be brought to a smooth stop while the implement mass is still engaged and being driven by the engine. Again no problem and this is a pretty good system. Now, that said, the cheaper tractors, like my old Kubota B7500 and the Kioti CK20S both with standard transmissions never had 2 stage clutches for PTO operation.

They just have transmission driven PTO's with a single stage clutch.. You let out the clutch the tractor begins to move and the PTO implement starts to spin up. Not worth a crap for baling hay, or rotary cutting for that matter. You need to start a rotary cutter raised up a bit so you don't choke it immediately until it gets spun up.

The bigger and heavier the cutter the worse it is. BUT they are supposed to be safe in that as you push the clutch in to change gears or for any reason, the over running clutch built into the PTO drive line does not allow the spinning mass of the implement to drive the rear wheels with power to continue moving the tractor forward even though the engine is disengaged from the driveline by the main single stage clutch being pushed in. The "ratcheting or clicking" sound you hear is the overrunning clutch doing it's job.

The overrunning clutch is supposed to allow power to be transferred from the transmission but NOT back into the transmission from the spinning mass.

Some of the old Fords, from 70 years ago did not have any internal overrunning clutch, and they exhibited the same problem the OP is talking about. The inability to stop the "darn" tractor when the clutch is pushed in and he is standing on the brakes and the tractor is still moving until the energy in the spinning mass is converted to heat by the brake pads.

This is very dangerous, and caused injuries or even fatalities back "in the day".. It ain't supposed to happen in 2014.

Thanks for the explanation, I can't imagine why they would produce such a dangerous arrangement on a tractor. Just like ROPS the tractors effected should be fitted with outboard clutches... My ol Fordson can be a bit of a beast at the best of times I couldn't imagine dealing with this as well. I don't know if you guys have found it this way but, even though on tractors you are moving and going slow, things can go wrong very quickly...

 

[k0ua]

I don't know if you guys have found it this way but, even though on tractors you are moving and going slow, things can go wrong very quickly.

Yes, yes, they can. You are dealing with a lot of torque and traction..

 

[BethelHntr]

This question is for any owner of a Kioti CK20S manual tractor. I own a 2013 CK20s manual tractor. Not HST. When I connect a brush hog to the PTO all works correctly, I let out the clutch, the tractor begins to move forward and the mower and pto spin up as expected. When I want to stop, I press the main tractor clutch fully down and the tractor will not stop moving forward, the PTO will not disengage and the tractor continues to move forward until the mower quits turning. I can force the tractor and mower to stop by using great force on the brake. This is dangerous because even with using the tractor brake it takes 4 - 6 feet to stop the tractor and mower. Both the tractor and mower stop by pressing the brake with enough force applied. I cannot use the PTO shifting lever to take the PTO out of gear because it grinds and will not shift the PTO out of gear until the mower completely quits turning. I also cannot put the tractor in Neutral until the mower completely quits turning because again the main transmission will grind. Once the mower stops turning and I take the PTO out of gear with the PTO shift lever everything is back to normal except the PTO is disengaged and I cannot use my mower without repeating the same situation of having to stop the tractor and mower with the brake.

I also have two other tractors and both of them will roll to a stop quickly while mowing whenever I press in the main tractor clutch and the mower keeps spinning. Never have these other tractors been forced forward by the momentum of the brush hog and never have I been forced to use the brake to stop both the mower and tractor, just pushing in the main clutch will allow the tractor to roll to a stop in short order.

I have a workshop manual for this model of tractor and it shows an overrunning clutch built into the transmission for the PTO which I believe is supposed to disengage the PTO immediately when the main tractor clutch is depressed and I am thinking it is stuck and does not release correctly. My question to any CK20S manual transmission owner that has used a Brush or Bush Hog with your tractor is this the way your tractor works. When you push in the main clutch on your tractor do you have to force the mower to stop by using the brake and does your tractor continue to move forward from the flywheel effect of your brush hog the mower?

I don't know if this will help your situation or not but I ran around on a little kubota b 7200 for years without a live pto. When engaging the pto the tractor transmission should be in neutral, Let the clutch out this gets the blades spinning then push the clutch back in and select the proper gear needed, It's a two step process. When coming to a stop push the clutch in to disengage the pto let the clutch back out and you are still in gear with the mower coasting.

Might be worth a try.

 

[paulfun9]

I would copy the page they have posted link to and walk into the dealership with it in hand and ask if they are going to make the machine conform to the law, return my money, replace the tractor with one that complies or waste their money and time in court. If your not the type to walk in and do so pay an attorney to inform them of your intention to seek legal action against both the dealership and Kioti.

 

[k0ua]

What I would do first is tear down the PTO driveline and find out if the parts are in there and broken, or not in there. I have a tendency to find out things for my self when faced with conflicting or suspect information.

 

[oldpilgrim]

wouldn't you be able to determine if the clutch is actually installed by manually turning the pto shaft in reverse rotation ?

It seems like the 'ratchet' mechanism, if installed, would click away if you turned the shaft backwards.

 

[rider7767]

wouldn't you be able to determine if the clutch is actually installed by manually turning the pto shaft in reverse rotation ?

It seems like the 'ratchet' mechanism, if installed, would click away if you turned the shaft backwards.

My internal PTO overrun clutch works very well on my CK20S with manual transmission: however, I am not sure I could turn it by hand. I will give it a try.

 

[oldpilgrim]

try a stilson wrench on it.