Really, really dumb question about difference between off road and on road diesel fuel.

[Flogger]

Out here, they have proposed a big change and you're not going to like it.

The proposal is no more keeping off-road diesel separate. Instead, ALL diesel will be taxed at the higher rate up front and then you apply for reimbursement.

If you buy 500 gallons for your off road tractor, forklift, backhoe, or excavator, then you pay the higher tax and submit documentation to be refunded the tax you paid.

Now, those of you who enjoy numbers are already a step ahead of my post. You are thinking,

"If a farmer gets busy and forgets to submit reimbursement on the $500 fuel he bought, then the Govt wins. They keep the extra tax money. You add that up over lots of farmers, lots of excavators, and lots of diesel powered generators and you are talking about millions of dollars in extra tax revenue"

And you would be correct.

I still have my grandfathers records from the days when farmers had to do just that. They were issued books to track and report excise taxes on fuels.

 

[mcmxi]

This isn't fear mongering. Just talked to a rancher from Miles City MT and he told me that law enforcement went to the local livestock auction facility and dipped tanks there. Fines were issued. Yes it can happen anywhere!

You can hear stories anywhere that it can happen anywhere.

 

[plowhog]

Wow, I can hardly believe it but I did find a statute permitting tank inspections with no other probable cause (Montana).

But I did find it interesting that the maximum fine for using RED diesel in a highway vehicle is $500, also the same fine for refusing to allow an inspection. If I had RED diesel in my highway vehicle, I would also have a locking gas cap and choose to refuse the inspection.

Red-dyed diesel checks begin across western Montana

The Montana Department of Transportation is conducting red-dye diesel checkpoints at various locations in western Montana. The checkpoints are a part of MDT’s efforts to curb fuel tax evasion and raise awareness. Dyed diesel fuel is regular diesel fuel that has red dye added to it to identify...

nbcmontana.com

15-70-415. Examination of records, MCA

leg.mt.gov

 

[5030]

Using red dyed diesel in any on road vehicle is entirely at your discretion 100% but, if you do, you have to be adult enough to bear the consequences of your actions. Real simple actually.

Now if someone came up with a way to remove the color from off road diesel, that would be interesting in as much as on road and off road are the same thing other than the red colorant.

 

[plowhog]

you have to be adult enough to bear the consequences of your actions

I don't use RED diesel in on-road vehicles. I'm more interested in the chipping away of our rights, in general, against search and seizure without probable cause.

 

[5030]

I don't consider off road and on road diesel chipping away at my rights at all. I do consider it to be a revenue producer for any state. That 'law' has been in effect for quite a few years and far as the fine, it varies by state. here in Michigan, first offense is a grand.

 

[mcmxi]

Wow, I can hardly believe it but I did find a statute permitting tank inspections with no other probable cause (Montana).

But I did find it interesting that the maximum fine for using RED diesel in a highway vehicle is $500, also the same fine for refusing to allow an inspection. If I had RED diesel in my highway vehicle, I would also have a locking gas cap and choose to refuse the inspection.

Red-dyed diesel checks begin across western Montana

The Montana Department of Transportation is conducting red-dye diesel checkpoints at various locations in western Montana. The checkpoints are a part of MDT’s efforts to curb fuel tax evasion and raise awareness. Dyed diesel fuel is regular diesel fuel that has red dye added to it to identify...

nbcmontana.com

15-70-415. Examination of records, MCA

leg.mt.gov

That's interesting. I'm not sure how the MDT would have the ability to stop a non-commercial vehicle for such an inspection. Commercial vehicles have to stop at a scale or inspection station, but non-commercial do not.

The announcement was two years ago but I've never seen MDT stopping non-commercial vehicles for fuel checks. There's a scale about three miles from my house and I pass it every day going to/from town but have only seen commercial vehicles stopped when the scale is open.

I see that the MDT has a "report dyed fuel violators" form which is their way of having someone else do the work for them, just like FWP encourages people to turn in poachers. Snitching doesn't seem consistent with Montana's way of life.

 

[plowhog]

I don't consider off road and on road diesel chipping away at my rights at all.

Whether your fuel is red, green, or purple marmalade is not my point. At what point is law enforcement entitled to detain you without any hint of a criminal act?

In California, the DUI checkpoints started as only on Christmas and Thanksgiving. Publicized in advance. Voluntary compliance only.

Fast forward 10 years, now they are everywhere. Pull around a corner and wham you are detained in a line of cars while the DUI checks are administered. No longer voluntary, now mandatory. The City of Berkeley, CA even went further-- during DUI checkpoints/detainers they started popping vehicle trunks and opening glove boxes checking for weapons. (That wound up being overturned.)

If you are unconcerned with chipping away of property rights, come to CA.

 

[CloverKnollFarms]

Yeah, the old 826 and 5088 stacks were never red

 

[rScotty]

I don't consider off road and on road diesel chipping away at my rights at all. I do consider it to be a revenue producer for any state. That 'law' has been in effect for quite a few years and far as the fine, it varies by state. here in Michigan, first offense is a grand.

That's about how I see it, too. Maybe all fuel & energy taxes are too high - but that's another subject. Coloring diesel to separate road from off road use makes sense to me.

Suppose just for argument we figure that passenger cars pay roughly in fuel tax what it costs to keep public roads in decent shape for cars & the public to travel over.
Then there are heavy commercial trucks that use those roads to make a profit. That's extra wear caused by their using a public road to make profit, so it's fair that they get to pay more in fuel tax to maintain those roads.
Farm tractors and offroad use doesn't involve wear on roads so much, so they get to use untaxed red diesel.

That seems pretty simple. If the heavier commercial trucks didn't pay more, the public would end up supporting the commerical trucker's profits. Looked at that way, cheating takes money out of the public pocket - that's everyone else's pocket except the cheater.

Supporting reasonable regulations is a balancing act between supporting freeloaders and respecting private rights... I get that.

rScotty