ROPS question - intended design?

txhawg · May 15, 2005

( And where do you supose that drawbar might be hooked to??? perhaps the 3pt lift arms? (yes))

A drawbar hooked to the 3pt can be very dangerous. When pulling with the drawbar, you are not utilizing the top link. Theoretically, it is possible to raise the arms up, increasing the angle of pull to a point where the drawbar is positioned above the axle. At this point, you are in danger. Please, use the fixed drawbar on the tractor. That way you will be around so we can continue our silly banter.

( EDIT: Ok.. ( throwing hands up in the air ) for those with the real restrictive blinders on.. does it help if I re-state and re-clasify my previous post in high context.... the 3pt linkage/drawbar, as described inthe safety section of my tractor manual, is listes as a safety feature.. which I, to the ire of some readers here, called a safety enhancer, or may have also refered to it (3pt lift) as having been designed with safety in mind.??)

/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif I have NO idea what you are trying to say. My manual says:

1. Hitch the towed load only to the drawbar. Lock the drawbar and pin in place. 

this refers to the fixed drawbar, not one attached to the 3pt.

( That make it all hunkey dory for the lawyer types out there?? )

Now, you have really made me angry. Believe me when I tell you I hate lawyers probably more than anybody on this board. I am a safety engineer, not a lawyer. I am forced to carry a $1,000,000 umbrella policy because lawyers try to blame me when their idiot clients do incredibly stupid things like disable engineered safetuy devices and ignore posted warnings. When you have to crawl around places that resemble a badly maintained sewer looking for what used to be a part of someone's body because they were told by a co-worker how they could disable the device that would have prevented that, or watch a man get his arm crushed up to his elbow because he ignored safety warnings in the machinery he was operating, you may BEGIN to understand the passion I have for safety.

Henro · May 15, 2005

Sorry, but nothing in either of those documents convinces me that common sense and good judgement aren't equal to or better than a ROPS. 

Jeff,

What may convince me (or you) that a ROPS is better than common sense or good judgement is the unexpected.

If we were all totally in control of what happens in our lives, accidents would not happen and everyone would be safe all the time.

Your logic could be extended to seat belts in cars, helmets for motorcyclists, and so on. Statistics show that using these safety devices save lives, just as ROPS/FOPS do.

Should the unexpected ever visit you hopefully you will not find yourself wishing you had had your seat belt on and ROPS up afterwards.

We each make our own decisions every day. I have learned to try to make mine in a way that maximizes my chances to survive if the worst case happens. Will something bad happen? Who knows?

A post by Mike Z back in 2002 remains in the back of my mind; perhaps it may be worth something to you too...I don't think Mike had a ROPS on his tractor. Had he had a ROPS and seat belt on, the result might have been less severe...How would any of us feel afterwards if our tractor had a ROPS and we elected not to use it, and something similar to what happened to Mike happened to us? The unexpected ensures that it could happen...

 About 8 years ago I rolled my Farmall over. It was a cold day in February, which probably saved my life. I was hauling wood on a trailer which was positioned behind the tractor pointing straight downhill. As I approached the tractor to climb on something told me not to fire her up. I shrugged it off and slowly crept downhill. I must have hit some ice or slick spot because I felt a lurch and the brakes were not holding. the back end was coming up.
I tried to jump off and I remember seeing dirt instead of sky.
My feet had become entangled in the clutch pedals. I remember something hitting my eye. I had thought that I lost my contact lense. It was much worse.
Something had struck through my eye. Blood was pumping out like a Hollywood Horror movie. Worse, I knew the tractor and I were still entangled.
When I hit the ground face first, I waited for the tractor and trailor to finish me off. I was still consicous, bleeding like a stuck pig, trapped across my back, and my knees and ankles ready to pop ligaments.
All finally quieted down, logs rolled past me. So I started to scream for help. I was not getting out of there on my own. My neighboor was in his garage working his compressor and could not hear me. My wife was in the house and could not here me either. I timed my yells for help after the compressor blasts. A neighboor on horseback finally came to my rescue.
It took 4 rescue departments and air bags to get the
machinery off me. The only thing that kept me going was the immense pain of having both knees and ankle ligaments ready to pop. If you ever popped a ligament you know how hard it hurts just before they go.
A helicopter ride to the hospital and one years worth of surgery was next. I have a plastic eye now, and a healthy respect for life.
I must have spent about two to three hours sitting there waitng for them to get that thing off me. I have no complaints because it was an accident. I am alive and things could have been worse. I carried an imprint of a screw driver across my hip for six months, I'll never forget the sound the rescue guy made as he ask me what else was I laying on. He held my hand the whole time.

I hate being cold now.
My wife made me sell the tractor, we rebuilt it, but the comfort level just was never there.

Be safe. I always think twice about everything. Smile a lot.
Never carry a grudge more than a few minutes.


Post copied from this thread...

Soundguy · May 16, 2005

( The three point IS a form of safety devise when compared to the other types of hitches of the era....... . With the third arm under compression, it was in effect pushing the front of the tractor down )

Aparently, we are in the minority on that thinking, in this thread.. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Those early fixed drawbar type hitches were dangerous. The 3pt hitch was a wonderfull addition to tractors back in the late 30's.

Soundguy

Indydirtfarmer · May 16, 2005

( ( The three point IS a form of safety devise when compared to the other types of hitches of the era....... . With the third arm under compression, it was in effect pushing the front of the tractor down )

Aparently, we are in the minority on that thinking, in this thread.. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Those early fixed drawbar type hitches were dangerous. The 3pt hitch was a wonderfull addition to tractors back in the late 30's.

Soundguy )

3-point hitches weren't intended as a saftey devise, however, they do make for a "safer tractor".

In the wrong hands, a 3-point hitch equipped tractor is still no safer than any other. USED CORRECTLY, they make for a VERY safe piece of equipment.

A ROPS devise is ALMOST idiot-proof. (IF seatbelts are used in conjunction with the ROPS) (Unfortunately, modern man has developed a higher level of IDIOT to complicate matters)

There's a BUNCH of modern features on tractors that were developed for reasons other than saftey, that lead to them being MUCH safer. 4WD comes to mind. Power steering is another....

As long as there's ONE moving part, someone will find a way to hurt themselves......

OUCH!!!!!!!!!! I just dropped my wireless keyboard on my foot.... /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Soundguy · May 16, 2005

( ( And where do you supose that drawbar might be hooked to??? perhaps the 3pt lift arms? (yes))

A drawbar hooked to the 3pt can be very dangerous. When pulling with the drawbar )

Good grief.. this is getting thick.

Txhawg.. I'm not literally talking about pulling a load from a drawbar hooke dup to ONLY the lower 2 links of a 3pt lift... I'm talking about a 3pt implement. if you generically look at a 3pt implement, they have two lower connections, and an upper 3rd link connection. The 2 lower connections are 'roughly' where the drawbar would be. In fact... many implements are made based on a drawbar, with more frame work weded on.. etc.. like 3pt trailer hitches.. etc.

In anycase.. take a plow for instance.. hitching that plow to the 3pt lift... if that plow becomes hung, As Jerry stated.. it is actually pushing the nose of the tractor down, putting the toplink in compression.. that is in effect, helping to stall a back flip. ( A safety enhancment over an older style hitch if ever there was one )

Now.. that same scenerio.. use a towed sulkie plow.. say something on a swinging drawbar.. like a JD type.. or fordson type.. etc. When that plow hangs, it greatly increases the chance of the tractor coming over backwards.

That's what I'm saying. I'm not literaly talking about a 2pt drawbar. ALL MY POSTS ARE ABOUT 3PT IMPLEMENTS.. NOT 2PT IMPLEMENTS.... In the section from the manual I quoted, where it mentions drawbar linkage.. there are arrows pointing to the 3pt lift arms and toplink in a diagram next to the paragraph.. "linkage" refers to all 3 arms.. not just 2. When I have mentioned 'properly connected' I am refering to using all 3 attachemnt points on 3pt equipment.. including the very important rigid 3rd link.

( Now, you have really made me angry. ....... you may BEGIN to understand the passion I have for safety. )

I'm for safety as well. That's why I mentioned the benefits of a 3pt lift, as opposed to an older pull only / swinging drawbar type system that tractors used to have.

I'm having a hard time seeing how these ideas don't go along with your safety thinking.... Both are about a safer way to do something /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

And you are mad.. how about me getting a tad upset when I keep mentioning 3pt Implements, and people keep coming back refering only to 2pt implements ( drawbar by itself ) which is hooked to the lower 2 links only????!??!!?? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

There must be a thick cloud in here preventing everyone from reading thru all the posts or something... I'm not alone in this thinking. So far at least two other posters have supported the idea of the safety advantage of a 3pt lift, compaired to an older swinging drawbar type link, etc., as quoted from the safety section of my tractor manual.

Soundguy

Soundguy · May 16, 2005

( 3-point hitches weren't intended as a saftey devise, however, they do make for a "safer tractor )

Yes.. they do make a tractor a bit safer to use. And as for your contention that they weren't designed as a safety device. i still point back to the late 30's when it was invented. It was designed as a tool carrier, with a safety advantage over a swinging drawbar. to illustrate that, the 3pt lift is refered to in the safety section of my tractor manual. .. it's 2nd on the list of other safety features. A rops is primarily a safety device.. though it does have secondary uses, like mounting canopies to, or lamps.. etc. The 3pt lift is primarily a tool carrier, though, by design, it enhances the safety of the tractor when used correctly, and with a correct implement.. etc.

( In the wrong hands, a 3-point hitch equipped tractor is still no safer than any other. USED CORRECTLY, they make for a VERY safe piece of equipment.
)

That's a wet noodle argument. A fire extinguisher in the wrong hands can be dangerous. For example.. if I were to remove a fire extinguisher fromt he wall and beat you with it /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif, then it wouldn't feel like much of a safety device would it? /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif Same thing with one of those nice metal first aid kit boxes... I'll bet they could produce a nice lump on the old knoggin /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif.. but it's a piece of safety equipment /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif!! I imagine.. If I tried, I could probably choke /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif someone with a pair of gloves, a respirator, ear plugs and a back support belt... And these are all safety devices / protective gear... but in the wrong hands they can be dangerous. /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

( In the wrong hands, a 3-point hitch equipped tractor is still no safer than any other. USED CORRECTLY, they make for a VERY safe piece of equipment.
)

Yep.. that's why we have to have warning on plastic bags so kids don't tie them on their heads like space helmets /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif, and buckets have to have that infant trip/drowning warning on them. (for the record.. I'm not making light of those two issues.. just using them as an illustration.... I hope to never see either one of those two accidents happen to anyone.... )

Soundguy

Indydirtfarmer · May 16, 2005

I guess that I worded my reply a bit "out of context". The original intent of the 3-point was as a simpler, more standard way of using and mounting tools. It was designed as a "traction aide", so a lighter tractor could handle the same load as a slightly heavier one.

In those terms, saftey wasn't the issue. HOWEVER, saftey was a byproduct that is probably just as valueable of a selling point as the functionality.

I'm in complete agreement that 3-point hitch mounted equipment is lightyears safer than drawn equipment (in general).

My only point is that when Harry Ferguson "invented" the 3-point, it wasn't a saftey driven concept.

Soundguy · May 16, 2005

( In those terms, saftey wasn't the issue. HOWEVER, saftey was a byproduct that is probably just as valueable of a selling point as the functionality.
)

I'll meet you half way and say that we can agree on that.

( I'm in complete agreement that 3-point hitch mounted equipment is lightyears safer than drawn equipment (in general). )

Deffinately agree.

( My only point is that when Harry Ferguson "invented" the 3-point, it wasn't a saftey driven concept. )

I didn't know the guy, so I can't say for sure what the exact thoughts were in his mind.. but my guess would be that he was looking for a new ( patentable / profitable ) way to 'help' the farming industry ( and sell tractors ), and that the 3pt lift was a great improvement on many levels.. safety being one.. but as a by-product due to design.. not by purpose specifically.

In those terms.. I think we can call that an agreement.. or at least parallel thinking... in that it wasn't a 'safety driven' design, as you you say.. but more of a utility driven design that ended up being safer? That work?
( I' think so /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif )

Soundguy

Indydirtfarmer · May 16, 2005

100%

Saftey was an issue back then, but not the driving force that it is today. (TV's weren't around, and lawyers couldn't advertise on such at that time)

Soundguy · May 16, 2005

( Saftey was an issue back then, but not the driving force that it is today )

So true. I have some vintage ford literature that shows a 36" cutter/chopper that was nothing more thatn a fixed blade that attached to the bottom 'face' of the add on ford belt pulley. What this gave you, when the belt pully was bolted on to the pto shaft with the pully faced at 90' angle down, was a fixed 36" mower.. no deck.. no shield. etc. the picture shows a guy on an 8n, leaning/looking back with one hand ont he rear of the fender, backing into some thick weeds chopping them to heck. Looks like the start of an OSHA safety training video...

Soundguy

ROPS question - intended design?

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