That Never Ending T&T Path!

[Henro]

I am torn between posting and not posting what I am doing with my own, personal, T&T project. There has been so much posted in the past on the same type project. Still, I think mine may be a little different, as I have focused on keeping things matched to the relatively small 3PH on my B2910 Kubota, and decided that to attain that goal I would have to use two tilt cylinders.

But before I start posting photos and all that, here are some links that will tell more than this thread will ever attempt to. By the time you read them you will probably have your fill and turn to a different thread!

Bird’s “Tip & Tilt” thread:

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=owning&Number=24170&fpart=1&PHPSESSID=

Bird’s Second “Tip & Tilt” thread:

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=owning&Number=32151&fpart=1&PHPSESSID=

Bill_in_MI’s thread:

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=owning&Number=52842&fpart=1&PHPSESSID=

Glenmac’s thread

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=custom&Number=59298&fpart=1&PHPSESSID=

Hayden’s “Going down the Top N Tilt path” thread:

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=custom&Number=46715&fpart=1&PHPSESSID=

Hydraulic fittings Qs.

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=buildit&Number=220085&fpart=1&PHPSESSID=

Hydraulic top link questions

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=custom&Number=258418&fpart=1&PHPSESSID=

Hydraulic Valve Options

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=custom&Number=65437&fpart=1&PHPSESSID=

Lock Valve (double piloted checkvalve) Plumbing

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=parts&Number=397234&fpart=1&PHPSESSID=



Hydraulic side link is too sensitive

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=implement&Number=244220&fpart=1&PHPSESSID=


ARGGGH....Where can I get flow restrictors for HTL

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=parts&Number=426811&fpart=1&PHPSESSID=

Rear remotes + TNT for B-series tractors by MadReferee

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=owning&Number=397828&fpart=1&PHPSESSID=

Apologies to those whose threads I somehow did not find.

Now that the housekeeping is out of the way, let me state my goals, which were:

I could not afford to lose anything by installing the T&T, and I still really wanted to end up with a good T&T setup when I was done. Sounds like something is crossed up there. But after thinking about it, and seeing that my tractor is relatively small, I realized I could not afford to lose 3PH-lift capability for the sake of T&T. If I had had to give up 3PH-lift capacity, then I guess I would have passed on the tilt part of the T&T idea. I still probably would have installed a hydraulic the top link though.

Fortunately, I was able to come up with a set up that actually gives me about 0.75 inch more lift (at the lift rod ends) than I have in the stock set up.

From what I have read, most T&T setups on small tractors end up sacrificing 3PH-lift capacity. Generally, I think it is fair to say that a tilt cylinder, with ample stroke, is put on one side, and then the adjustable lift rod (that is standard on most tractors) is put on the other side. That mechanical lift rod is adjusted so the 3PH will be level when the tilt cylinder is at mid stroke. The net result seems to be that some lift capability is lost. (This may not be true in all cases. It is just my unscientific observation.)

So with a smaller size 3PH, things often end up where the new point at which level is found will be physically lower than the level point of the original equipment. Net result: The 3PH does not lift as high as it did before the T&T was installed. Not a good thing on a small tractor with limited 3PH lift to begin with. Not that the B2910 Kubota I am putting this on is that limited. But it is certainly more limited than a larger tractor is.

Additionally, I wanted a way to be sure that my 3PH were level without thinking too much about it. I was not sure I could see a mechanical level indicator if I devised one for use on one tilt cylinder. However, two tilt cylinders, each with its own control valve, would allow me to simply retract them both fully and to know without question that the 3PH was level, with respect to the rear axle. I would not even have to look if I did not want to. Level is something I don’t currently know if I attained or not without measuring, even with the standard mechanical tilt setup. So the new T&T offers an Advantage! Actually two advantages, certain level and more lift than stock.

After reading all the threads I pointed at above, several times, I concluded that a single tilt cylinder with a 4-inch stroke would probably be adequate for my needs. But if I went with two cylinders, each with a 2-inch stroke, I could actually gain (a fair amount of) lift on the 3PH, so I set the goal of finding cylinders with 2-inch stroke for my application. Fortunately they are not common. What is fortunate about not finding what you want? Well, I did not know it at the time, but when welding ends on the cylinder rod, with even four inches of rod outside the cylinder, you need to be very careful not to overheat the cylinder seals. I doubt I could have avoided cooking cylinder seals on a cylinder with only 2-inches of stroke, without making some kind of special cooper, water-cooled heat sink to put around the rod. With the 4-inch stroke, I was able to get buy with an old pair of wet underwear as the heat sink, along with taking some time between welds to let things cool off a bit.

Actually, even when using cylinders with a 4-inch stroke on each side, I was able to gain about 0.75-inch lift over the stock setup. So I will have gained with putting T&T on my tractor. This 2-tilt-cylinder setup will give equal tilt capability in each direction, and a bit more lift than the stock setup had to boot. Along with a simple way of putting the implement at level, by simply raising both tilt cylinders fully.

As I type this, the T&T is not quite finished, but it is close. I ordered the necessary hoses and fittings to complete the job (I hope, major headache being sure of what I needed) and expect to receive them shortly.

When putting my system together I have tried to approach this with an open mind and my system has evolved along slightly different lines than those of past posters. I hope this report will be of interest. I took a lot of pictures and will post some of them, as I guess you guys are like me and enjoy looking a pictures of what others are doing.

The time sequence may jump around a bit since I am a bit along in the project, so please bear with me.

I’ll start with a picture of the three cylinders on the tractor, taken when I was checking out my progress to that point. Then I’ll back tract and show how I got to that point, and take it from there.

 

[Henro]

Now back to stage 1. After considering what others have done, I decided to go with Prince Wizard line welded cylinders, as they matched my size requirements real well. Unfortunately, Prince had undergone a marketing change since I priced the cylinders a month or two before, and now they are not giving the great discount they used to give for direct sales. Currently they are just offering 10% off list. Previously it was something like about 40% off list. So I gave up on the idea of new cylinders.

The good news is they still offer good prices on new surplus cylinders and control valve sections. So I talked with a guy there and ended up buying surplus cylinders that already had ends (that I did not need) welded on them. I cut those ends off and welded on what I needed.

Before purchasing my cylinders, I concluded that what I needed was a top link cylinder with 8” of stroke, and side link cylinders with 4” of stroke. What I ended up with was a 2.5 inch x 8” stroke top-link cylinder (what I originally wanted) and two 2.75 inch x 4” stroke diameter cylinders for the tilt cylinders (original target was 2” dia.). Cost was roughly $90 each including shipping.

The attached picture was taken when I was cutting off the ends of the 8” stroke cylinder, in preparation for welding the top link ball ends on.

 

[Henro]

The rod end of the top link cylinder was welded on after I ground a little bit of a chamfer on the end of the rod.

 

[Henro]

Root weld finished.

 

[Henro]

Rod end of top link cylinder finished, time to move to the cylinder end.

 

[Henro]

Almost ready to start welding the cylinder end fitting.

 

[Henro]

Top link cylinder done except for paint.

 

[Henro]

Cutting the clevis ends off one of the tilt cylinders.

 

[Henro]

The fork that will be welded on this end has to angle a bit, so I cut the clevis ends at different points so the fork I fabricate can angle properly.

 

[Henro]

When done, the angles of the forks at the ends of the hydraulic cylinder need to match the angles of the stock lift rod.

 

[Henro]

Fabricating an end for the cylinder end of the tilt cylinder. This fork is square, but will angle in one direction due to the way the clevis ends were cut off at the base end of the cylinder.

 

[Henro]

Fork for the base end of the cylinder welded up and ready for the hole to be drilled, and then to be welded on the cylinder base.

 

[Henro]

The cylinder-rod-end needs to angle in two directions. One way is backwards toward the tractor, and the other is angled towards the lower link arms. The backward angle is set into the fork itself. The cylinder rod will be cut on an angle to provide for the angle needed with respect to the lower arm.

 

[Henro]

The wooden spacer chars a bit due to the heat of welding, but that is a non-issue and it sure makes keeping the alignment right easy.

 

[Henro]

Double-checking the angles before cutting off the rod end clevis.

 

[Henro]

Fork welded on the rod end of one of the tilt cylinders.

 

[Henro]

Test fit of the completed cylinders.

 

[Henro]

Completed cylinders waiting for installation.

 

[Henro]

Next step was deciding on a control valve. I actually tried to find a parker valve like met kit sells (http://www.metkit.com/catalog_conval.htm), but in the end I went with a Prince sectional valve.

It became quite an involved process for me to decide what I actually wanted to buy. I bought into the need for pilot-operated check valves of some kind. I also realized that hydraulic hoses and fittings are pretty expensive, so I set a goal of simplifying my system as much as possible to reduce cost. On top of that I wanted to have an extra remote, in addition to what I needed for my T&T, and since I was already using three cylinders for the T&T, that meant four control valve sections.

After much torment, I FINALLY decided on using three Prince control valves sections that have built in pilot operated check valves, and one section without the check valves but with a float position. It looked like separate pilot operated check valves would cost about $60 each, and I was able to buy three surplus valves sections from Prince, with the pilot operated check valves built in, for $74 each. This simplified the set up somewhat, as I would now have no need to figure out where to mount separate check valves.

The Prince sectional control valves are actually pretty simple in construction and assembly. Before doing it I did not have a clue as to what might be involved. I am including a series of photos showing what these things are about. I would have been interested in seeing these kinds of photos before I purchased the stuff. Hope some of you guys are interested!

The Prince sectional control valve is made up of three parts. An inlet section, an outlet section, and working sections that are placed between them. This first picture shows the inlet and outlet sections. And the power beyond plug that goes into the outlet section if you want the power beyond feature.

The thing to note is that one surface of each section has o-rings, and the other surface is smooth. These surfaces mate up, and you would get a good seal if you put these two sections together. But without a working section in the middle, it would be a useless exercise to do so. Between these two sections the working sections are placed. Each working section has a smooth side and an O-ring side. The three holes without O-rings are for the rods that hold the assembly together.

Following pictures will show the working sections and things will make more sense.

 

[Henro]

I bought four working sections as I mentioned above. The section with float is the shorter one. The three with pilot-operated check valves built in are taller.

As a side note, I should say I was torn between buying these sections with the check valves in them, or using separate check valves. The reason is because these valves are motor control valves and as such, they do not act exactly like a normal control valve. If the check valves in one of these sections would fail, the valve would act like it was in a float position, and that would not be very desirable. But the person I spoke with at Prince told me they sell a lot of these to backhoe operators, for use with backhoe stabilizers, to hold them in position and prevent drift down. So on this word I finally decided that buying these work sections would simplify what I was trying to accomplish.

Before putting my valve together, I decided to put the float section on one end rather than in the position it is shown in this photo.