Got Ambushed Last Night and Shot!
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gemini5362
Veteran Member
Actually, Gemini, I thought it was shoot him and drag him in the house, here in Arkansas?
I actually went down to the sherriffs office and asked them about it when I moved back. Those are the old laws though. The Concealed carry laws changed that and although not as nice as oklahoma make my day laws they still offer a lot of protection if you find yourself in that situation.
I remember one time when I was in college (after my navy days) There was people talking on the CB about a lost 8 year old in the mountains near where I lived. I went out to help search. The county sherrif was standing up in a pickup addressing everyone and handing out search areas when I got there. I heard him say that if anyone found the little boy to fire three shots in the air ( pre cell phone days) Somebody that was not from the area told the sherriff that he did not have a gun and asked him what to do. The sherriff pulled out his revolver and said this is a smith and wesson 38 police special. He said I am probably the least armed person in the group. ( he was right) If you find the little boy just ask anyone around to fire for you. We dont see the tye type of crime numbers other communties see.
dmccarty
Super Star Member
Dargo said,
Don't feel bad. Lots of people have trouble with these drills. They are hard. People spend most if not all of their time shooting paper from a fixed spot. Its a new ballgame when someone is yelling in your ear, there is bad light, you have to move, the target may or may not move, you should or should not shoot said target, and the target(s) are at various distances.
Its just a skill that has to be practiced. A big part of the drill is keeping calm. Once calmness has left, things fall apart quickly. Keeping calm really is key. But its very hard to do and requires practice.
But it also helps to have muscle memory so you don't have to think to much. That does come from shooting paper.
There are training tapes on VCR/DVDs that can help with these shoot/dont shoot drills. Not sure if they are cost effective for one person to purchase but they can help. And even though its on TV. You know its not real. Its still stressful.
Later,
Dan
Don't feel bad. Lots of people have trouble with these drills. They are hard. People spend most if not all of their time shooting paper from a fixed spot. Its a new ballgame when someone is yelling in your ear, there is bad light, you have to move, the target may or may not move, you should or should not shoot said target, and the target(s) are at various distances.
Its just a skill that has to be practiced. A big part of the drill is keeping calm. Once calmness has left, things fall apart quickly. Keeping calm really is key. But its very hard to do and requires practice.
But it also helps to have muscle memory so you don't have to think to much. That does come from shooting paper.
There are training tapes on VCR/DVDs that can help with these shoot/dont shoot drills. Not sure if they are cost effective for one person to purchase but they can help. And even though its on TV. You know its not real. Its still stressful.
Later,
Dan
the_sandman_454
Silver Member
Where do people get that stupid "shoot to wound" crap? You don't shoot to kill or wound, you shoot to stop an attack or hostile threat. If you have time to try to take a precision shot, you might not have been justified in using a deadly weapon to defend yourself.
When it is time to shoot, you shoot at the center of exposed mass because 1) it provides the biggest target meaning you're more likely to get effective rounds on target under stress, and 2) it is more likely you'll incapacitate the attacker before he has a chance to harm you.
Finally, two shots, stop and check could easily get you dead. Once you have decided to shoot, you shoot until you're sure the threat is over. That doesn't automatically mean killing someone, it means removing his ability to harm you.
If the guy still has the weapon and or is still standing or assuming a threatening posture, keep firing until that changes. The only thing you can't do is "finish someone off" once the threat they posed to you has passed. For example you shoot the guy, he drops his gun, if he is done being aggressive you can't just kill him at that point.
On a final note, if you have to shoot someone, do not tamper with any evidence, as that can turn it around from you being legally in the right to being tried for murder, tampering with evidence and a whole mess of other things.
If you do choose to go about armed, make sure you know the laws in your area, as what is legal one place isn't necessarily legal someplace else...
When it is time to shoot, you shoot at the center of exposed mass because 1) it provides the biggest target meaning you're more likely to get effective rounds on target under stress, and 2) it is more likely you'll incapacitate the attacker before he has a chance to harm you.
Finally, two shots, stop and check could easily get you dead. Once you have decided to shoot, you shoot until you're sure the threat is over. That doesn't automatically mean killing someone, it means removing his ability to harm you.
If the guy still has the weapon and or is still standing or assuming a threatening posture, keep firing until that changes. The only thing you can't do is "finish someone off" once the threat they posed to you has passed. For example you shoot the guy, he drops his gun, if he is done being aggressive you can't just kill him at that point.
On a final note, if you have to shoot someone, do not tamper with any evidence, as that can turn it around from you being legally in the right to being tried for murder, tampering with evidence and a whole mess of other things.
If you do choose to go about armed, make sure you know the laws in your area, as what is legal one place isn't necessarily legal someplace else...
patrick_g
Elite Member
Chris, There are multiple tons of discussion on penetration and such as well as a few pounds of ignorance and confusion on the topics of stopping power and lethality.
There is good agreement on the part of those who have used the .45 ACP regarding its stopping power. It is good for stopping an attacker. Some of the lighter but faster bullets (.357 mag for example) penetrate better and have high lethality (the target, unaided, will probably die later from the wound(s)) but in self defense stopping the attack NOW is more important than the target dieing later although .45 ACP is also lethal, at least if you do it right.
In concealed carry, expert opinion says the largest caliber you can conceal and handle well is the right size for you and loaded as powerfully as you can control sufficiently for delivering two rapid shots to the center of mass AND still being able to (taking more careful aim) place a shot between the mustache and eyebrows. For home defense just leave out the conceal part for handguns and consider shotguns as an alternative. I should think a frangible slug or frangible 000 or 00 or even #4 shot are not to be underestimated for their stopping power but are neighbor friendly.
I lived on a sailboat for 9 years and had my .44 mag with semi-jacketed hollow points (hand loaded to 1500 FPS+) handy to my sleeping position. You could hunt trucks and buses with that thing. When I moved into a house I promoted my Colt .45 Gold Cup National Match model 1911 to "Defense of the Realm" and put away "Dirty Harry's cannon." This was primarily due to concern for over penetration in a neighborhood with close home spacing.
"Monster guns" are not appropriate for home defense in neighborhoods where a bullet going out a window can kill a neighbor or a bullet with "HIGHLY REGARDED PENETRATION" can easily create lethal collateral damage in unintended victims, your loved ones and friendly neighbors.
If there is reasonable concern for armed attack from multiple body armored highly motivated attackers requiring you to consider "super penetrating" rounds then either you need to move or harden your perimeter. There are kits available, customized to your dimensions, for turning a closet into a tornado safe room by lining the walls with steel plates and replacing the door and jam with HD steel components. You could do this to your bedroom to thwart the body armored army otherwise to be kept at bay with "super penetrating" rounds.
I think over penetration is a dangerous thing and super penetrating rounds are NOT needed to stop an attacker in realistic scenarios. If reasonable is not a consideration then we wouldn't stop at super penetration but would also need a home full of booby traps, and perhaps particle accelerators and industrial lasers too.
Pat
patrick_g
Elite Member
I don't think anyone suggests firing twice and then offering the attacker a questionnaire regarding his plans of further pressing his attack.
I also don't think it is necessary to empty the magazine and then check for the attackers carotid pulse to determine if he is still a viable threat.
Hopefully while firing two rounds center of mass you will have your eyes open, brain engaged, and may notice if there is a sufficient modification of the attackers status to warrant a cease fire. If not (and your able) I recommend a round between the mustache and eyebrows. You never know, maybe the reason the attacker didn't stop with two in his center of mass is his Kevlar underwear. Putting one between the mustache and eyebrows BEFORE he recovers from the two center of mass shots (with force spread by the vest) is prudent.
To just blast away excessively with many rounds may weaken your position in any hearing to determine how justified your actions were. If two center of mass shots, even with a vest, doesn't at least temporarily slow the attacker and make a mustache/eyebrow shot easier then you are not using enough gun.
In the event any of the above "THEORY" doesn't fit your situatioin as regards your staying safe and alive, shoot as much as is required to stop the attack.
Pat
pennwalk
Veteran Member
Pat,
I was thinking about shotguns. Birdshot may hurt but not stop. Of course there is a lot of misunderstanding about shotguns.
Chris
I was thinking about shotguns. Birdshot may hurt but not stop. Of course there is a lot of misunderstanding about shotguns.
Chris
Soundguy
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Maybee.. maybee not. I believe that there is a lot of pshchological impact from being shot with a shotgun.. even if it does not immediatly drop you.
IE.. a guy with with a serious but not possibly? non-lethal wound from a charge of bird/buck/flachette shot.. well.. he's injured.. and he knows it.. and he doesn't know how bad. IF he wants to live.. and is bleeding out of several open wounds.. hopefully he will try to retreat in hopes keeping himself from bleeding out.
I usually keep a #4 as my first shot in my scattergun.. and then follow it up with at least 00 magnum buck. I figure the #4 is a safe bet to not penetrate my buildings exterior walls.. so.. if that one is enough to get the intruder to stop attacking me and stop the threat.. that's good... Enough force was used .. and there was some sort of safety margin concerning overpenetration. If however the attacker continues to close.. presumably I will have a better shot with that buck load.. which.. again.. hopefully is enough to stop the attack. The closer range / proximity of the closing attacker should help with keeping all the shot on target.. help anyway..
soundguy
IE.. a guy with with a serious but not possibly? non-lethal wound from a charge of bird/buck/flachette shot.. well.. he's injured.. and he knows it.. and he doesn't know how bad. IF he wants to live.. and is bleeding out of several open wounds.. hopefully he will try to retreat in hopes keeping himself from bleeding out.
I usually keep a #4 as my first shot in my scattergun.. and then follow it up with at least 00 magnum buck. I figure the #4 is a safe bet to not penetrate my buildings exterior walls.. so.. if that one is enough to get the intruder to stop attacking me and stop the threat.. that's good... Enough force was used .. and there was some sort of safety margin concerning overpenetration. If however the attacker continues to close.. presumably I will have a better shot with that buck load.. which.. again.. hopefully is enough to stop the attack. The closer range / proximity of the closing attacker should help with keeping all the shot on target.. help anyway..
soundguy
Soundguy
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Makes you wonder if any of those 'shooter' style video games help any???
soundguy
soundguy
Dargo said,
Don't feel bad. Lots of people have trouble with these drills. They are hard. People spend most if not all of their time shooting paper from a fixed spot. Its a new ballgame when someone is yelling in your ear, there is bad light, you have to move, the target may or may not move, you should or should not shoot said target, and the target(s) are at various distances.
Its just a skill that has to be practiced. A big part of the drill is keeping calm. Once calmness has left, things fall apart quickly. Keeping calm really is key. But its very hard to do and requires practice.
But it also helps to have muscle memory so you don't have to think to much. That does come from shooting paper.
There are training tapes on VCR/DVDs that can help with these shoot/dont shoot drills. Not sure if they are cost effective for one person to purchase but they can help. And even though its on TV. You know its not real. Its still stressful.
Later,
Dan
Soundguy
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- RK 55HC,ym1700, NH7610S, Ford 8N, 2N, NAA, 660, 850 x2, 541, 950, 941D, 951, 2000, 3000, 4000, 4600, 5000, 740, IH 'C' 'H', CUB, John Deere 'B', allis 'G', case VAC
It's for this reason that I keep my scattergun handy for home defense, as well as keeping a couple ( his & hers ) (S&W/Tarus ) 38's loaded with +Prounds in case it is not a 'scattergun' situation. I leave my .50AE as well as the .44mag 'Anaconda' in the gun safe.
soundguy
soundguy
For home defense just leave out the conceal part for handguns and consider shotguns as an alternative. I should think a frangible slug or frangible 000 or 00 or even #4 shot are not to be underestimated for their stopping power but are neighbor friendly.
I lived on a sailboat for 9 years and had my .44 mag with semi-jacketed hollow points (hand loaded to 1500 FPS+) handy to my sleeping position. You could hunt trucks and buses with that thing. When I moved into a house I promoted my Colt .45 Gold Cup National Match model 1911 to "Defense of the Realm" and put away "Dirty Harry's cannon." This was primarily due to concern for over penetration in a neighborhood with close home spacing.
"Monster guns" are not appropriate for home defense in neighborhoods where a bullet going out a window can kill a neighbor or a bullet with "HIGHLY REGARDED PENETRATION" can easily create lethal collateral damage in unintended victims, your loved ones and friendly neighbors.
If there is reasonable concern for armed attack from multiple body armored highly motivated attackers requiring you to consider "super penetrating" rounds then either you need to move or harden your perimeter. There are kits available, customized to your dimensions, for turning a closet into a tornado safe room by lining the walls with steel plates and replacing the door and jam with HD steel components. You could do this to your bedroom to thwart the body armored army otherwise to be kept at bay with "super penetrating" rounds.
I think over penetration is a dangerous thing and super penetrating rounds are NOT needed to stop an attacker in realistic scenarios. If reasonable is not a consideration then we wouldn't stop at super penetration but would also need a home full of booby traps, and perhaps particle accelerators and industrial lasers too.
Pat
