Opinions wanted on future house & outbuilding mechanical systems.

   / Opinions wanted on future house & outbuilding mechanical systems. #11  
I utilize a Tiny Titan hot water heater for hot water in my carriage house. It or the flow-through NG-fired heater would use about the same amount of space. Don't know what your electricity costs are in CO. They're cheap here in VA.

I recently put in a heat pump hot water heater adaptor for hot water heating in my house. You can also buy heat pump hot water heaters. One in your shop would take up more space than either the Tiny Titan or your planned flow-through unit, but it would use 2/3 less electricity than the Tiny Titan. The heat pump in use in my house is Air Tap.

Ralph
 
   / Opinions wanted on future house & outbuilding mechanical systems.
  • Thread Starter
#12  
Peter:

Lots of good points, and please see interspersed comments.

Matt

70' for water is nothing. I run 950' with 2" pipe. I doubt you even need a second pressure tank in the house even though many do this. That's kind of what I am thinking too.

You are smart doing one septic. But keep in mind that the GOV has a habit of changing its mind/restriction very often and fast in this area. Make sure you have room to add a few more runs or put in an aerator to start in case their criteria change between building the barn/septic and completing the house. Before spending money, I will always double check what the Gummint's fickle revenue generating mind has to say. My preliminary sizing is based on 3-bedrooms upstairs, 3 future bedrooms in the basement that never will happen while we own the place, 3-bathrooms on the main level, one in the basement, and the kitchen and laundry room. I've based the outbuilding on two people working there and one bathroom. The health department than has one take the gallons per day number and add another 50% to it for the occasional overloading. With just my wife and me and possibly our elderly parents; there won't be a huge load on the system. A few people in my neighborhood have gotten rude surprises from the health department concerning septic system sizing because the builder was too cheap to size for future usage and did the just the bare minimum. I know our place falls into that category.

2" foam should give about R-10 depending on your exact foam product. This is good for radiant or regluar heated space. also put the board on inside and outside of foundation below the slab. For radiant, the most important area is the edge of the slab (yep, that little 4" high area) near the walls. The slab can loose a lot of heat there. You may want to look at denser foam under slabs in the barn. Most box stores carry formular 1500 but you can get denser board for great load bearing (formular 200, 400, etc.). ALso, there are some variations on how/where you put the foam if you do solar radiant...basically you get the insulation value but increase the thermal mass also...ask if interested. Amazing how that piddly little 4" of slab thickness can waste so much energy through heat transfer.

Caution running two separate 200 services...one may be billed as commercial rate. I ran into that with my barn. Had to use commercial meter socket. ANd I have to pay 14 cents per KW/hoosiwhatever instead of the 11 cents I pay at the house. the "AG" rate is the same 14 cents. Talk to the electric company or local electrician about a large main service then a 200 amp "little 'ol sub panel" for your "second" service in the house or barn. I am just try to save you money if able here. I need to contact the electric utility about this. At least I won't be running 3-phase power. :rolleyes:

I would SERIOUSLY consider more modern and efficient building techniques. Look into SIPS and ICFs. What you spend extra to build you save more each month on utilities. Most builders offer their "caulk and seal" packages with standard 2x4 or even 2x6 construction. But these do not get anywhere near the efficiency of newer practices. The mentioned 2x6 with 24" OC spacing is good but even that is not good as SIP/ICF/etc. If you do traditional framing make sure you sheath either inside or outside with continuous foam to stop thermal bridging at each stud. Also the mentioned passive solar is a great idea. Even spray foam does not compare. I have both framed with spray foam and radiant foam board structures and SIPS structure...SIPs blow the foam away hands down in efficiency, rigidity, and are amazingly quiet. Most ICFs are even better. For the house, I would prefer ICF for the strength, energy efficiency and quiet. SIPS are my next choice on the list. I want to avoid conventional 2x framing if I can. The outbuilding is going to be a compromise between being as energy efficient as possible, and what we're willing to spend so we can still build the house.

Also look into alternatinve heating/cooling. since you have the land look into geothermal/ biomass furnace/ solar/ etc. These do cost more to install...but what they add when put into a mortgage they save even more on the monthly utilities...ie they save money from day one...not a 10 year payback. Also, the feds now (2009) allow you to take about 30% of your total solar (and some other) expenses directly off your tax bill. The $2000 max dissappears in '09! Many states also offer rebates...up to 50%(most don't get that much) in Ohio for solar. Geothermal heating and cooling piques my interest the most at the moment, and possibly a wind turbine for supplemental electricity since the wind is always blowing to some degree out there.

I would not let potential drilling into a radiant slab stop you from using radiant. It is very comfortable and quiet heat...and in a high ceilinged barn can save some good money. If you tie every12" to wire mesh you can be sure where to drill and not to drill. I als placed some J bolts in the slab and tie down pints when I put in my radiant barn slab. Planning ahead and measuring is worht the time to get the pleasure of radiant. The first time you lay on the ground under your tractor you wil smile at your decision! I haven't dismissed in-floor radiant heat for the outbuilding yet; but there are a number of drawbacks to it too; namely reaction time to calls for heat and cooling changes. I'm planning on making sure the building has a high enough eave so I can install a lift if I so desire. That will save lying on the concrete when under the tractor or any other vehicle.

Hope this helps...sorry it is long. I have just been doing alot of energy saving work and research the last few years. It is amazing how much can be done with a few dollars and some extra planning. Nothing to be sorry about; this is the kind of information I am seeking from those who have been there, done that.

Peter
 
   / Opinions wanted on future house & outbuilding mechanical systems.
  • Thread Starter
#13  
Please see interspersed.

I built a 40 X 60 shop about 100' from our house location. All of the power comes first to the shop, then underground to the house. I wanted the meter and all the power company stuff on the shop building, not the house - strictly an aesthetic decision. I have one meter for both the shop (I'm a furniture maker) and the house. I installed 3 different conduit connections between the house - one for power, one for phone, computers etc., and one still unused for who knows what. The capacity was cheap to install during construction. The aesthetics aspect is kind of my thinking too.

One feature of my shop, a wood framed, steel sided structure, is that I framed between the posts to allow the structure to be sheeted with 3/4 plywood. I used blown-in insulation ("bib system") which is 7" thick. The posts are 5 1/2", the horizontal purlins (maybe not the right term - girts) that hang the steel are 1 1/2 thick, so together they permitted 7" of insulation. The plywood sheeting makes the structure incredibly rigid. The blown insulation puts a little pressure on the steel, so the net result is that the building is rigid, tight, and unbelievably quiet. One of the reasons I'm leaning towards a metal building is to minimize flammability in the structure since welding and grinding sparks are planned to be a regular part of my activities out there. What little wood hacking I do is essentially to make temporary fixtures or mockups.[/quote]
 
   / Opinions wanted on future house & outbuilding mechanical systems.
  • Thread Starter
#14  
A random thought, you could just preplan your floor pot locations and give them wide berth with the PEX.

I could; but if there is one thing I learned when I worked in the Facilities Engineering department at NREL (National Renewable Energy Lab) is that spaces such as shops, garages, labs tend to change and get reconfigured on a regular basis; hence my reluctance to go the PEX route in the floor. I swear some of those scientists would have us change a lab for a new experiment and by the time we got done with the design, construction and as-built process, they were ready to change it again.
 
   / Opinions wanted on future house & outbuilding mechanical systems. #15  
I have considered the same setup as your shop. Although the 3/4 ply is expensive for an interior finish it adds greatly to the structural integrity of the building and allows almost anything to be attached inside.

Did you blow in insulation in lifts as you added layers of Ply? Also wondered if you added a moisture barrier to the outside before blowing insulation? Sounds like a nice place to work.

MarkV

Mark,

I found bunks of birch veneer ply at HD for $27 per sheet. The cost (.84/sq.ft.) was hardly any more than finishing sheetrock. The plywood also allows me to hang up stuff on the walls anywhere without hunting for studs.

The "bib" system I refered to uses a fine grid nylon netting which is stapled to the inside surface of the framing. The insulation is blown in by sticking a tube through the mesh at the top of each cavity and blowing the insulation into the cavity. I did not use a vapor barrier.

Rick
 

Attachments

  • shop inside1.jpg
    shop inside1.jpg
    137.7 KB · Views: 160
  • shop outside1.jpg
    shop outside1.jpg
    182.1 KB · Views: 135
   / Opinions wanted on future house & outbuilding mechanical systems. #16  
I have recently have put up a 40' X 90' shed this last fall and had many of the same decisions that you mention above. (www.tractorbynet.com/forums/projects/122998-pole-shed-project-input-always.html)

I decided to put in the radiant in-floor heat as many people discussed the fact that in the winter if you work in your shop for many hours, your feet will start to get very cold if you don't heat the floor. Also, I have 16' sidewalls and in order to get it 60 degrees at the floor, I most likely would have to keep it about 80 degrees at the ceiling. With in-floor heat, this solves that problem. Also, heating with electic off-peak I get the electricity at 4 Cents/kwh and so far have only head an electricity bill for $40 for heat and lights. I installed a propane furnace in the corner of the building and use this to suppliment the heat (from 50 to 65 degrees) when I am working in the shop. Also, I worried about the drilling into the floor with tubing, but I did it and thought of it this way. The slab is 4" thick, and the tube (on mine) is connected to the insulation at the bottom. The tube is only 1/2" - 3/4" off the bottom of the slab. That leaves you "safely" 2" to drill an anchor for your "stuff". I anchored my office walls with 2" cement anchors and had no problems.

As far as the electical service, I decided to run 2 separate service entrances. I realize this will cost me $11/month more, but when I looked into running the extra wire from my shed to my house and being resposible for that wire (vs. the electical company running it right to my house) it would have been about $2000 difference and at $132/year, it takes many years to make up the difference and I now don't have to worry about making the service big enough to handle both places now (really a headache if I found out I needed more for the house later).

Hope this helps on a few issues.

Thanks,
DW
 
   / Opinions wanted on future house & outbuilding mechanical systems. #17  
For what reasons do you forsee drilling into the slab in the future?

For example, if you intend to put in a lift in the future perhaps you would want to add some footers to the concrete in the area where it would be positioned, and you could make sure to run the radiant lines to avoid these areas?

Seems like as soon as I put up a wall or attach something to the floor, I wish I hadn't. I wonder if there are some adhesives that are strong enough for your intended applications that would avoid the need for any drilling?

The combination of heating options suggested by DW seems to offer some advantages in a cold climate.
 
   / Opinions wanted on future house & outbuilding mechanical systems.
  • Thread Starter
#18  
Please see interspersed.

For what reasons do you forsee drilling into the slab in the future? Securing drill presses, bandsaws, lifts, lathes, pedestal mounted bench grinders, etc. Top heavy machinery benefits from being bolted down.

For example, if you intend to put in a lift in the future perhaps you would want to add some footers to the concrete in the area where it would be positioned, and you could make sure to run the radiant lines to avoid these areas? Bend-Pak http://www.bendpak.com/ has concrete specifications for their various lifts. None of them called for footings, and that surprised me, especially on the 2-post lifts. However, the floor requirements were up to 8" thick for large capacity lifts.

Seems like as soon as I put up a wall or attach something to the floor, I wish I hadn't. I wonder if there are some adhesives that are strong enough for your intended applications that would avoid the need for any drilling?

The combination of heating options suggested by DW seems to offer some advantages in a cold climate.
 
   / Opinions wanted on future house & outbuilding mechanical systems.
  • Thread Starter
#19  
I posted the same question on CountryByNet too, and Pat gave good reasons why in-floor radiant heat in an outbuilding is not always a good thing. He explained it far better than I could. Below is his reply.

Pat replied to your post at the site: .
http://www.countrybynet.com/forums/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Board=barns&Number=44072

Coolerado snake oil...I have had some trouble explaining heat pipes to folks who don't have the appropriate background. Although to the uninitiated, heatpipes seem like snake oil or some sort of magic, they are real and are well proven in appropriate applications ranging from getting heat out of the interior electronics of the F-111 swing wing to cooling high performance CPU's in PC's. There are commercial packaged units for use in HVAC applications that are terrific enhancements to cooling systems (dehumidification), especially in humid climates or other situations with high latent loading.I followed the link and read the material on the Coolerado system. The theory sounds OK but what remains to be seen is the mechanization/realization. There are lots of good ideas out there which have to wait until advances in the state of the art of manufacturing advances sufficiently to make them economically feasible. Maybe Coolerado is there.If you don't want to be extravagantly wasteful with energy in heating an intermittently occupied space you need to carefully consider thermal mass and its effects on the time constant of your heat system (in this instance SYSTEM includes the building as well as the mechanical equipment.) In a residence that has a high percentage of occupancy, thermal mass can be your friend, the big flywheel that helps level out variations. This is true for in-slab heating or similar. The reverse is true if you have an intermittently occupied space with a low percentage of time when it is occupied. In-slab heat in a workshop is a very comfortable thing but essentially has to be heated all through the heating season as the response time is so long you can't wait till you are there to turn the heat.In the case of an intermittently occupied space with low percentage of occupancy, reducing the effective thermal mass is a good idea. Decoupling thermal mass from the occupied space allows faster response in heating and wastes less heat at shutdown. For example, in a tilt up concrete or cast in place wall system you would insulate the interior surface of the concrete wall to decouple the concrete's thermal mass from your "system." Similarly, a fast response heating system would be good. Radiant heat is a good choice. Radiant heat raises the average radiant temperature of the space and can make it comfortable to occupy much faster than forced air (and its inevitable cold drafts at start up) and HOURS to days faster than in-slab. Radiant heat will make a space comfortable from a cold start faster than other systems. Because of this you don't need to spend energy far in advance to preheat the space and if your schedule is unpredictable you would either have to use the space cold or heat it all the time just in case. Not much of an issue with a good fast response radiant system.I have an eclectic mix of system heating elements in my house which includes both in-slab, in-wall, and in-ceiling hydronics (and other non hydronic systems.) In-slab is NOT a candidate for setback strategies but in-ceiling can be for a space like a bedroom where the desired overnight temp you prefer may be several degrees different from the preferred daytime temp. Heated ceilings are quite compatible with plush carpeting (not so with in-slab as it raises required water temps above the practical limit for a heatpump and requires a boiler system.)Rugs or carpets in your office space will raise the comfort level (in an intermittently heated sceanario) as it will decouple the slab floor from the radiant environment and increase perceived warmth (greatly diminishes the cold feet effect of cool slabs in a heated space.)Way back when... I was the energy conservation officer at SUBASE San Diego and NREL was one of the fonts of knowledge I tapped for info.Pat
 
   / Opinions wanted on future house & outbuilding mechanical systems. #20  
I live in a very cold climate, it has not been warmer then 30 below in 4 days and is suppose to be 48 below tonight. The weather man said it will soon be colder.

In this weather we use radiant floor systems, no A/C needed. In shops we have put down insulation, put down pex and screeded out sand, 2 inches, and then poured concrete. this allows you to drill into concrete and have a saftey factor. we also zip tied pex under rebar to protect it.

If you have a wall taller then 8 foot the ICF systems are the only way to go. We have heated units under construction with very small electric heaters. I am not familiar with your weather but would guess that a small heater in a well insulated building you can heat the shop, but place pex in the slab incase you change your mind.

If you run water 70 feet i would run a spare line. any problems with your primary line and you can switch to the spare in an afternoon with out tearing up the yard.

I run pipe for a living, welded oil pipelines to heat and plumbing, the secret to being happy with the work for the years to come is to think it through and look at the maintenance for the next 50 years. spare lines, valves for isolating work, and future exspansion are the points that most people miss. valves are cheap.

A well designed and insulated will cost more to build but less to operate and will be cheaper in the long run
 

Tractor & Equipment Auctions

2015 MACK ELITE LEU633 GARBAGE TRUCK (A51243)
2015 MACK ELITE...
2021 GMC SIERRA CREW CAB TRUCK (A51406)
2021 GMC SIERRA...
18006 (A51691)
18006 (A51691)
2010 Ford Edge SE SUV (A51694)
2010 Ford Edge SE...
2015 CATERPILLAR 289D SKID STEER (A51242)
2015 CATERPILLAR...
1998 Cornhusker Hopper Bottom Trailer (A50514)
1998 Cornhusker...
 
Top