Problems with a logger

[MarkV]

Hi all, I am wondering if anyone has any experience with how to handle damage done by a logger. Here is the story. My MIL, late 80's, has a nice tract of 120 acres that we pretty much manage these days. An adjoining property was just logged and the loggers remove about 400' of her fence and used a trail on her property to skid trees without permission. Besides the damaged fence some of their left overs were pushed on to the property, a culvert crushed, the trail damaged and piles of tree tops left on their side leaning against the remain sections of our fence line.

We have contacted the owner of the property, another senior lady, and told her of the damage. Also let her know we expected to have our property restored to what it was in a timely way. It seems the loggers also dropped a tree on her barn and another on a well house so she is none to happy either. I have photographed everything for a record and we have started a log of conversations in case they are needed. We also have the state forester coming out to take a look, although they do not get involved in private contract disputes. They do keep a list of preferred contractors though as a public service.

It is a wait and see situation at the moment but I thought I would bounce it around here to see if anyone thought I was missing anything. Hopefully the logging company will respond with repairs and that will be fine by us. If not though, what do you think the next step should be?

MarkV

 

[MossRoad]

Hi all, I am wondering if anyone has any experience with how to handle damage done by a logger. Here is the story. My MIL, late 80's, has a nice tract of 120 acres that we pretty much manage these days. An adjoining property was just logged and the loggers remove about 400' of her fence and used a trail on her property to skid trees without permission. Besides the damaged fence some of their left overs were pushed on to the property, a culvert crushed, the trail damaged and piles of tree tops left on their side leaning against the remain sections of our fence line.

We have contacted the owner of the property, another senior lady, and told her of the damage. Also let her know we expected to have our property restored to what it was in a timely way. It seems the loggers also dropped a tree on her barn and another on a well house so she is none to happy either. I have photographed everything for a record and we have started a log of conversations in case they are needed. We also have the state forester coming out to take a look, although they do not get involved in private contract disputes. They do keep a list of preferred contractors though as a public service.

It is a wait and see situation at the moment but I thought I would bounce it around here to see if anyone thought I was missing anything. Hopefully the logging company will respond with repairs and that will be fine by us. If not though, what do you think the next step should be?

MarkV

File a claim against the property owner. Hopefully she has insurance. It is up to her to settle with the logger, not you.

 

[RonMar]

IMO, your neighbor harvested the trees(hiring the logger to do the work), it is your neighbor's responsibility to fix the end results/damage caused by this activity...

 

[Richard]

My personal experience with some loggers that did this area... these guys.. well, let me rephrase this... "OUR" guys didn't give a rats patooey what anyone thought.

They even ignored stipulations in their contract regarding cleaning up their area. They even tried, well, they DID bury one of those HUGE tires from their machine in one of the slash piles. When asked about it, he simply told me to go ahead and burn it with the rest of the slash pile I said I wasn't going to do that and he needed to get it out of there.

To give you an idea of just how "screw you" his attitude was, I finally had to contact the county and essentially, file a complaint against OURSELVES (father in law) for having this situation and in the same complaint, I had to name the logger. Seems their process is to go after the land owner first and if the land owner (my FIL) knows who is responsible, they will then go after that person. Interstingly, once the county was notified, the tire disappeared one day later.

Those idiots could not get off this farm fast enough. They even told their friends "oh yeah, we've got a job over there...just go ahead and get all the firewood you want from the scrap piles"

I caught about 4 different people who were trespassing because the loggers gave them permission... I explained to each one of them that the logger did in fact purchase the timber and it's theirs to take...HOWEVER, it is not their place to allow strangers onto someone elses land. If the logger wants to carry firewood logs/piles out and give them away that's one thing but to tell strangers to come onto someone elses land to get it...wasn't going to happen....at least not here.

 

[ToadHill]

I give all my friends this adv ice and if you log your property it will serve you well. Before anyone logs your property hire a private forester who will work for you. They will mark the trees to be harvested and send out request for proposals to mills who purchase the types of logs you have for sale. When the quotes come back you can review them with your representative and choose who you want to purchase the logs.

The successful bidder will pay the forester the agreed upon price + a cleanup fee that will be returned when the logger has cleaned up his mess. The forester will also oversee the progress of the harvest and if the weather causes unusual damage to the property he can make sure it is delayed until better weather. This up front payment makes the trees his and from a legal standpoint he is harvesting his own trees and you are no longer liable if any accident happens.

Foresters usually take a 10-15% fee for this service but let me say that I know for a fact that they will get a lot more for your timber than you will get on your own. I know someone who got a quote from a logger and was going to sell his timber for $17,000, he decided to get a forester and when the bits were opened the winning bid was $42,000, and guess what the winning bidder was the same guy who offered $17,000.

What can you do about the damage to your property? First I'd check and make sure that none of your trees were harvested. Also as others said the neighbor contracted with the logger and is responsible, they can deal with the logger.

If I could prove that the logger took down your fence and crossed your property I'd contact the local law enforcement agency and have them served for trespass.

 

[J_J]

You reckon that logger has bullet proof tires on his machines? Darn the luck, 4 flat tires hmm how you reckon that happened. Don't get angry, get even, with extreme prejudice.

 

[MarkV]

Thanks for the responses so far. Yes we have contacted the landowner and agree with those of you who say it is their problem. We need to give it a little time and see what they can/will do. Unfortunately the widow land owner is pretty senior and it doesn't seem that her kids are of much help. We will see.

Richard I know what you are talking about. Pine trees are one of the only things that grow well in my NW Georgia area so we have many small logging companies around. Like anything, the bad ones make all of them look bad. I've yet to see a logging site where their idea of clean up and mine were the same. Some are worst than others though.

ToadHill we give the same advice as you when ask about having property logged. In this case we didn't have any input though. We found out in another situation that you still need to be careful even with a licensed forester representing you. Whole new thread in itself.

Latest up-date! I talked to the state forester this afternoon and it didn't take long to find out this logging company has a history of problems. His opinion was that the landowner would find them hard to reach now that the job is done. So tomorrow I am going to the county tax accessors office to see if they pulled a timber permit. It is required here as well as copies of the load tickets from the mill at completion of the job. Taxes on timber harvests are due on completion and that permit is how the county is suppose to track the moneys due. We understand this company sometimes forgets those requirements. I figure it can't hurt to have some facts if the landowner can't make our repairs happen and we need to talk to the logging company.

MarkV

 

[2manyrocks]

Where did the money from the timber sales go? Did the widow get anything or did they blow town with all the timber money, too?

 

[MarkV]

Where did the money from the timber sales go? Did the widow get anything or did they blow town with all the timber money, too?

As far as I know they received what was agreed. Funny time to log though. In our area timber prices are in the toilet, quoting the state forester this afternoon.

MarkV

 

[studor]

Play dumb -- phone the logger, tell them you want logging done, ask for their bond or insurance company, -- file a claim with their insurance or bond company -- no insurance or bond sue them for public damage and liability -- you might end up with a logging company!

 

[EddieWalker]

We have contacted the owner of the property, another senior lady, and told her of the damage.

Obviously I don't know your neighbor, but from reading your post, I sort of got the feeling that because she's an elderly lady, that you feel the need to by nice to her and are trying to avoid a confrontation with her.

The funny thing is that I've met allot of old timers, and I've come to the conclusion that age has nothing to do with character. If they were a piece of crap in their younger years, they are still crooks and dog doo doo in their older years.

She may be a saint, or she may be a total crook and was aware of what was going on with the loggers on your land and didn't care. The fact that she's having them log her place when prices are down indicates that she's either not very wise with her investments, or she's hurting for cash. It's just a guess on my part, but if she's hurting for cash, I don't think she cares what the did on your land.

It's your call and you have to deal with her, but I wouldn't avoid a confrontation with her over what happened. I would document everything that you can find, and come up with a monetary value for it. Then I would tell her that she owes you that amount of money and if she doesn't pay it, you will take her to court. She can pay you, or she can go after the loggers and get the money and pay you. I wouldn't wait for her to play games with the loggers, that's her problem. She owes you for the damages that she hired the loggers to do. It's 100% on her to make this right.

Good luck,
Eddie

 

[Scooby074]

Im not a lawyer, but i think the responsibility for the damage lies on the loggers.

They were contracted as "professionals" to do the job. In the process they damaged your property. Unless the neighbor deliberately told them to do so, then i think shes in the clear. As professionals its their responsibility to do the job correctly. Think of it this way, your having a swimming pool dug, and they cut the fiber for the neighbourhood? who pays to repair it? the contractor or their insurance.

We had a very similar situation happen. A neighbor had some land logged and the loggers cut a path across the back of our property. TO add insult, they took the timber they cut for the road and sold it!!

We were advised to sue the loggers, not the land owner. We calculated the stumpage and settled with the loggers for the value of the timber and some money for damage to our land.

THe legal system in the states may be different so YMMV

 

[Gary51]

If your place was properly marked, could you not file criminal trespass charges through the sheriffs office on the loggers?

 

[forgeblast]

I was approached by a "logger". Well a person who worked for a sawmill who was going to do some logging for my neighbor. I have taken some forestry classes and know our county forester so i entertained the idea for about ten mins. I walked the property and realized they had already been on my property to mark the trees they wanted and to mark the property line. I took a look at the trees they wanted and the cut they wanted to do was a highgrade cut. cut the best leave the rest. This would have set back my timberlot by 50 years. So i asked for a copy of any insurance before they cut and i never heard back from them. I also asked our county forester to come out and give me some advice on maintaing my lot. (basically 20 ac of mixed hardwood) He noticed right off the bat that they were going to do a highgrade cut and laughed when i told him about the insurance. We also looked at some of the cuts that they made on my neighbors property. They barber chaired a bunch and ruined a couple of nice cherry the way they cut them. The cherrys we figured are growing at 1/2 inch a year so if i wait ten years the 100 dollar trees i have will be worth 6-900 dollars. We also figured out what trees to do release cuts to let the quality trees grow. The trees i drop i am using as firewood. Needless to say if i went with the fast quick buck, my property would be destroyed, my future potential earnings would be gone and i would be sepending more and more money to replant.
Things i learned.....1. talk to your county forester before any cut. 2. the county forester deals with the loggers all year long, see number 1. 3. When the loggers know the county forester has and will be on your property before and after they cut it seems there are less problems so see number 1. 4. the county forester will know of any federal and local grant money and or programs that may help you, plus our taxes pay for that service.
sorry for the long rant
forgeblast.

 

[MarkV]

Things are looking up. The landowner told the logger to contact my MIL and he did. I've talked to him and we are going to meet at the beginning of the week on site. I get the feeling he will do the right thing. My wife's family has been in the area for close to 100 years, and know everyone, so it is in his best interest to.

I did check and a permit was pulled and he has the proper insurance. If things don't work out we will for sure become more confrontational. In a community this small it works better if you don't have to though.

MarkV

 

[Richard]

I give all my friends this adv ice and if you log your property it will serve you well. Before anyone logs your property hire a private forester who will work for you. They will mark the trees to be harvested and send out request for proposals to mills who purchase the types of logs you have for sale. When the quotes come back you can review them with your representative and choose who you want to purchase the logs.

The successful bidder will pay the forester the agreed upon price + a cleanup fee that will be returned when the logger has cleaned up his mess. The forester will also oversee the progress of the harvest and if the weather causes unusual damage to the property he can make sure it is delayed until better weather. This up front payment makes the trees his and from a legal standpoint he is harvesting his own trees and you are no longer liable if any accident happens.

Foresters usually take a 10-15% fee for this service but let me say that I know for a fact that they will get a lot more for your timber than you will get on your own. I know someone who got a quote from a logger and was going to sell his timber for $17,000, he decided to get a forester and when the bits were opened the winning bid was $42,000, and guess what the winning bidder was the same guy who offered $17,000.

What can you do about the damage to your property? First I'd check and make sure that none of your trees were harvested. Also as others said the neighbor contracted with the logger and is responsible, they can deal with the logger.

If I could prove that the logger took down your fence and crossed your property I'd contact the local law enforcement agency and have them served for trespass.

Iagree with about 200% of what ToadHill said with the one addition...

qualified with "in our case" the forrester DID bring in more money than was originally being offered by the guys "trying to help" my father in law...I think he garnered something like an additional 50K or heck, for all my memory is, perhaps an additinoal 100K... either way it was an expense well spent.

My suggestion though... do NOT do what my father in law did and pay the forrester 100% up front when the bid is paid.

Truth be told, in our case, once the forrester was paid, all of the "oversight and monitering" that he was supposed to do got washed away. I think he showed up once/twice after paid (12 month contract). I was the one that had to jump on these guys about the derilict tire and all their personal trash that I might add, was specifically addressed in the contract that they were to clean up daily. Had he been out here performing the second half of his contract he would have caught that in an instant.

Once the forrester guy got his cash, he was pretty much gone like the wind but I must give him credit... his inventorying of the land did net a higher price.

 

[ecMSirish6thman]

In a situation like this in MS, where I live, the logger is responsible for his acts and for the acts of his crew. He would be responsible for a trespass, theft of property and damage to property. He would be liable for payment for use of easement, restoration of property to pre-use condition as well as stumpage. Stumpage would be payment for trees harvested which could be 2 to 4 X the amount paid to him for the harvest off your property OR it could be a fee per stump. That could be something like "X no of $/stump" which could be huge amuont so do your homework and DOCUMENT YOUR DAMAGES before you ask for compensation.

Also, remember not to threaten him with legal action as that can be construed as extortion. I am not an attorney and this is not legal advice, just information shared from MY experiences.........

 

[Skyco]

Also, remember not to threaten him with legal action as that can be construed as extortion.

What Any lawyers care to comment on that statement?
Seems like the threat of legal action is standard practice to get things moving....

BTW my dad had a very poor experience with a logger too, in fact I've yet to hear of anyone that was pleased with logging operations on their land

 

[ZetorShaun]

You don't think that they are still around but most loggers are gypsies. They run scams whether they be asphalt or logging or roofing. They steal everyone blind. They run flim-flam, confidence, identity theft, check cashing, and plain old robbery all the time, funny you never read more about them.

Still, logging theft from adjoining land is the industry standard in my area. You need political influence in order to have the city or the county shut them down or dead to rights surveys, forestry reports, and a very dedicated attorney. Your nice neighbor was likely robbed by them and they likely contaminated her land.

In any event, see the attorney first, call the local state fish cop or state forestry officer for advice, hire a private surveyor or forester, then try to locate the company, shell corporation, or individual. Still be very careful, they have the capacity to sue or harass you, they are tough to nail down if you are not a government official yourself. Every time I see loggers it is depressing.

I had no luck with trespass or anything. I lost my trees plain and simple because I wasn't there to guard them. That goes for the county attorney, sheriff, and state tree police. I only lost three trees (nice sugar maples), I was in Kosovo when it happened, man, was I mad. Get your fences up and protect them trees. The gypsies are out there, it is hard to believe they are still running around, virulent survivors.

 

[dmccarty]

We cut some of our trees in 2000. We did it right and used a Forester. Its been awhile since I read the law but I'm pretty sure in NC if the logger cuts my tree by mistake he pays me three times its worth. Even with depressed timber prices it does not take many stolen trees to make it a felony crime. One would hope that the local DA and Sheriff would look at this crime seriously.

Many smart people get taken by the bad loggers. People just don't know what the trees are worth and the loggers come in a tell the owner that they will give them $10,000 for the trees. The owner says WOW I'll take it. They don't realize the trees could be worth many times more than offered.

Good Luck.
Dan