We were originally looking at spray foam insulation for the whole house--until we got the quote. It was claimed that the spray foam could fill in our low spots and stick to the concrete though.
Steve
Terra-Dome Earth Shelter Build
- Thread starter SamWalton
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We were originally looking at spray foam insulation for the whole house--until we got the quote. It was claimed that the spray foam could fill in our low spots and stick to the concrete though.
Steve
We went with a forced ventilation system for the house. Air comes in one stack, goes through a heat exchanger, through the house and out the same heat exchanger (different stack!). Not cheap, but every room gets fresh air. The heat exchanger minimizes heat loss.
Steve
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SamWalton
Platinum Member
We made a mistake on that. The TD plans had gas forced air heat through pipes under the slab. What we should have done was use those same ducts to do a ventilation system (we have in-floor radiant heat). Our contractor doubts there would have been room under the slab anyway. Instead, we have part of the master bath/closet with a flat ceiling. Ventilator systems and ducting are mounted up there, with access to roof vents. It's working out ok.
In case I wasn't clear before, we don't have any forced vent under the slab, but do have ventilation in the house. We do have crushed stone and perimeter drains under the slab.
Steve
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SamWalton
Platinum Member
Please provide some more pictures of your progress
Things are moving slowly here in Maine. Our new "done" date is Jan 31 (yes, 2010).
The roof shot (1433) shows the roof insulated and filled. Note that there was a fair bit of settling after we got 3" of rain overnight. We will probably be refining roof drainage next spring is my guess. The exterior shots show open trenches for the utilities; these did mostly get reburied before the snow hit this week. Plowing snow with open trenches would be way too much fun!
1451 shows the inside of the garage. The door on the left leads to the shop, then there is the main electrical panel, then a door into the laundry room (just an opening now). To the right of that, amongst several rolls of tubing is where there will be a small room with heat, phone, well pump, etc in it. We will be pouring the garage floor next week (finally). This is getting pretty important: I have a bunch of steel fixturing I want to cast in the shop floor concrete. Right now it is getting snowed on. I *really* don't want it to get frozen in. Next week it goes in the new house garage.
Sam--we insulated the inside of our skylight (the concrete part). Despite the picture, the outside will also be insulated. I need to figure out some way to put a second layer of lexan on the inside during the winter to keep heat loss down.
Steve
The roof shot (1433) shows the roof insulated and filled. Note that there was a fair bit of settling after we got 3" of rain overnight. We will probably be refining roof drainage next spring is my guess. The exterior shots show open trenches for the utilities; these did mostly get reburied before the snow hit this week. Plowing snow with open trenches would be way too much fun!
1451 shows the inside of the garage. The door on the left leads to the shop, then there is the main electrical panel, then a door into the laundry room (just an opening now). To the right of that, amongst several rolls of tubing is where there will be a small room with heat, phone, well pump, etc in it. We will be pouring the garage floor next week (finally). This is getting pretty important: I have a bunch of steel fixturing I want to cast in the shop floor concrete. Right now it is getting snowed on. I *really* don't want it to get frozen in. Next week it goes in the new house garage.
Sam--we insulated the inside of our skylight (the concrete part). Despite the picture, the outside will also be insulated. I need to figure out some way to put a second layer of lexan on the inside during the winter to keep heat loss down.
Steve
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SamWalton
Platinum Member
Steve,
You have made great progress! I may hire some help on a few areas. Keep the pictures coming? We will finish water proofing the roof, parapets and finish priming the pressure treated block outs this weekend.
Moisture problems
We've had a couple of condensation related problems related to cold weather and high interior humidity. Sam, your weather is a bit different from ours in Maine, but you may have more consistently high humidity, I don't know if you'll have anything like this or not.
First, our skylight. The plastic dome is double layer with a gap between. The seal on this skylight is bad--frost between the two layers. My contractor says he can see a possible bad spot in the edge seal. The edge of the skylight has a metal cap (aluminum). The outside of the cap is exposed to Maine winter, the inside to lightly heated air--heated with propane fired salamanders, a source of a bunch of humidity. Guess what--the skylight metal condenses water pretty fast. Once enough gathers, it runs down the inside of the skylight. Our plasterer is not going to be happy with this situation.
The plan is to insulate what we can outside, also insulate the metal on the inside. During construction they are going to put a concrete blanket over the top. We're hoping this will get rid of actual dribbles. Another possibility would be to add an interior layer of plastic--sort of a storm window on the bubble.
The second source of condensation are the tubes penetrating the roof. Same deal, the black plastic tubes have outside, cold air on the outside, warmish damp air on the inside, water dribbles. There are pipes running up some of the tubes. Sealing between the black outer tube and any stuff inside with foam seems to work fine (the foam seal is at the bottom of the tube=ceiling level). I didn't see, I think they used a combination of foam insulation board and some spray foam (canned stuff) to fill in the cracks.
So we've got a solution that works on the black tubes, I think our skylight solution is workable (maybe with a tweak or two). The $64,000 question is why didn't Terra Dome guide us so we wouldn't have these problems?
Rust Spots in the Ceiling
The walls are 10" concrete with rebar. Form ties (1" metal strap) run through the wall. The ends of the form ties are broken off flush, leaving a bit of exposed steel. The concrete dome ceiling has some wire ties (maybe tying rebar together?) that come through the inside surface in places. Now that plaster and underlayment has been put on the walls and ceiling, some rust spots show up. The walls are fine--no rust showing anywhere. The ceiling has rust spots wherever there is a wire end. The spots are maybe 1-3mm in size. This isn't horrifying--it isn't like the ceiling has measles. Again, the big question is why didn't Terra Dome warn us about this. They say they've made a bunch of these, they ought to know about it. Our contractor is freaking out, the owners are a little calmer.
Sam, I'd consider toothbrushing any wire ends you can find with a phosphoric acid steel prep solution, then painting them with some kind of good sealer like an oil based primer. The phos will convert any existing red rust to black oxide and leave a paintable surface. You can either use a metal prep product or they also have phos. acid based concrete cleaner (I get it at Home Depot). Wear goggles, the toothbrush will probably spray all over.
Back to the roof pipes: one of the things I'd advise anyone building one of these is to add extra black pipes to the roof. You could cut any extras off flush on the outside and cap it. We had three sun tubes planned, but had to use those tubes for other things, no sun tubes. Someone building these with experience would have put the right number of tubes through the first time--again, why didn't Terra Dome recommend enough tubes?
That's all for now,
Steve
who is helping our contractor figure this thing out in Maine
We've had a couple of condensation related problems related to cold weather and high interior humidity. Sam, your weather is a bit different from ours in Maine, but you may have more consistently high humidity, I don't know if you'll have anything like this or not.
First, our skylight. The plastic dome is double layer with a gap between. The seal on this skylight is bad--frost between the two layers. My contractor says he can see a possible bad spot in the edge seal. The edge of the skylight has a metal cap (aluminum). The outside of the cap is exposed to Maine winter, the inside to lightly heated air--heated with propane fired salamanders, a source of a bunch of humidity. Guess what--the skylight metal condenses water pretty fast. Once enough gathers, it runs down the inside of the skylight. Our plasterer is not going to be happy with this situation.
The plan is to insulate what we can outside, also insulate the metal on the inside. During construction they are going to put a concrete blanket over the top. We're hoping this will get rid of actual dribbles. Another possibility would be to add an interior layer of plastic--sort of a storm window on the bubble.
The second source of condensation are the tubes penetrating the roof. Same deal, the black plastic tubes have outside, cold air on the outside, warmish damp air on the inside, water dribbles. There are pipes running up some of the tubes. Sealing between the black outer tube and any stuff inside with foam seems to work fine (the foam seal is at the bottom of the tube=ceiling level). I didn't see, I think they used a combination of foam insulation board and some spray foam (canned stuff) to fill in the cracks.
So we've got a solution that works on the black tubes, I think our skylight solution is workable (maybe with a tweak or two). The $64,000 question is why didn't Terra Dome guide us so we wouldn't have these problems?
Rust Spots in the Ceiling
The walls are 10" concrete with rebar. Form ties (1" metal strap) run through the wall. The ends of the form ties are broken off flush, leaving a bit of exposed steel. The concrete dome ceiling has some wire ties (maybe tying rebar together?) that come through the inside surface in places. Now that plaster and underlayment has been put on the walls and ceiling, some rust spots show up. The walls are fine--no rust showing anywhere. The ceiling has rust spots wherever there is a wire end. The spots are maybe 1-3mm in size. This isn't horrifying--it isn't like the ceiling has measles. Again, the big question is why didn't Terra Dome warn us about this. They say they've made a bunch of these, they ought to know about it. Our contractor is freaking out, the owners are a little calmer.
Sam, I'd consider toothbrushing any wire ends you can find with a phosphoric acid steel prep solution, then painting them with some kind of good sealer like an oil based primer. The phos will convert any existing red rust to black oxide and leave a paintable surface. You can either use a metal prep product or they also have phos. acid based concrete cleaner (I get it at Home Depot). Wear goggles, the toothbrush will probably spray all over.
Back to the roof pipes: one of the things I'd advise anyone building one of these is to add extra black pipes to the roof. You could cut any extras off flush on the outside and cap it. We had three sun tubes planned, but had to use those tubes for other things, no sun tubes. Someone building these with experience would have put the right number of tubes through the first time--again, why didn't Terra Dome recommend enough tubes?
That's all for now,
Steve
who is helping our contractor figure this thing out in Maine
OP
SamWalton
Platinum Member
Steve,
I am sorry you have had some many problems. It really is a lot to figure out when this isn't the typical type of contracted home build. I have had tons of questions answered by Tracy Terra Domes Forman and Jay Scafe. I have also developed a relationship with Ralph Smoot a Terra Dome builder in Texas who has offered many different methods to accomplish the same. Many problems can be avoided by making a simple call to Jay before proceeding. Your sub-contractors may have used standard methods on your non-standard home also many times the subcontractors don't have access to question the Terra Dome people. I really believe many methods normally used simply don't work with these construction methods.
As for you skylight I would consult with sun-dome.com for a warranty or possible repair. We haven't had any problems other than Jay order our window to larger forcing me to build the diameter larger with multiple hexagon pressure treated lumber installs. I did install a protective plastic layer between the window and the wood base. This helps buffer the temperature preventing the dew point and prevented any course material from scratching the surface while my wife used a grinder to remove all high spots and metal straps from all walls and ceilings.
I know Jay opted to use regular drywall I believe Ralph has a superior method. He blends a white Portland with marble dust and Titanium dioxide. After Appling this there is no need to paint. It also is water proof to some degree and prevents mold. Assembling this material has been difficult and in my last communication to Ralph he still remains vague. I don't know what you wall finisher did but grinding is the first step, power washing is second. Sealing the metal straps is third, and then you apply your finishing product.
As for the dew point problem, you must insulate the inside of the light tubes to prevent this dripping. As for other pipes dripping you should insulate the outside.
We have had problems with the Ecoline-R water proofing in the areas where water pools. The product lifts or separating from the concrete surface and also re-emulsifying. I am sure your product will never work in these areas. Sadly we have invested a great deal of money, labor and clothing just to fail a second time. I can only conclude these problems with your product are not currently on the web are because everyone covers their roofs before they can see this occur.
I am sorry you have had some many problems. It really is a lot to figure out when this isn't the typical type of contracted home build. I have had tons of questions answered by Tracy Terra Domes Forman and Jay Scafe. I have also developed a relationship with Ralph Smoot a Terra Dome builder in Texas who has offered many different methods to accomplish the same. Many problems can be avoided by making a simple call to Jay before proceeding. Your sub-contractors may have used standard methods on your non-standard home also many times the subcontractors don't have access to question the Terra Dome people. I really believe many methods normally used simply don't work with these construction methods.
As for you skylight I would consult with sun-dome.com for a warranty or possible repair. We haven't had any problems other than Jay order our window to larger forcing me to build the diameter larger with multiple hexagon pressure treated lumber installs. I did install a protective plastic layer between the window and the wood base. This helps buffer the temperature preventing the dew point and prevented any course material from scratching the surface while my wife used a grinder to remove all high spots and metal straps from all walls and ceilings.
I know Jay opted to use regular drywall I believe Ralph has a superior method. He blends a white Portland with marble dust and Titanium dioxide. After Appling this there is no need to paint. It also is water proof to some degree and prevents mold. Assembling this material has been difficult and in my last communication to Ralph he still remains vague. I don't know what you wall finisher did but grinding is the first step, power washing is second. Sealing the metal straps is third, and then you apply your finishing product.
As for the dew point problem, you must insulate the inside of the light tubes to prevent this dripping. As for other pipes dripping you should insulate the outside.
We have had problems with the Ecoline-R water proofing in the areas where water pools. The product lifts or separating from the concrete surface and also re-emulsifying. I am sure your product will never work in these areas. Sadly we have invested a great deal of money, labor and clothing just to fail a second time. I can only conclude these problems with your product are not currently on the web are because everyone covers their roofs before they can see this occur.