Help with winterizing my well

[keegs]

I'm having a new well system installed in our Maine summer house. I'm considering how to handle winterization. I thought it might be a good idea to raise the level of th expansion tank which I'm planning to install in the basement, to make draining it easier. I'm not sure if there're going to be freezing issues with the remaining water in the line from the tank to the well pump (I'm thinking will be submersed in the well).

Any experiences with this out there?

 

[Tig]

If it's a drilled well, the punp will be deep in the ground and safe. Keep your line below the frost. 4'? Check with the local building authorities on that one. Level or perhaps a very slight slope into the basement for the last 10' would allow the water to run out once disconnected from the pressure tank.
Don't skimp on the pressure line from the well to the house.
My well line is not nearly as well installed yet it survived years of abuse. Last march there was even ice on the water in my dug well.

 

[dave1949]

There is a simple answer to your issue Keegs. Have the well driller or plumber install a drain down valve in your well. It will be installed where the water pipe comes out of the side of the well casing down below the frost level.

Opening the well casing cover, using a long tee handle, you can open that valve and let the residual water in your pressure tank and supply lines drain back into the well.
Dave.

 

[PILOON]

There is a simple answer to your issue Keegs. Have the well driller or plumber install a drain down valve in your well. It will be installed where the water pipe comes out of the side of the well casing down below the frost level.

Opening the well casing cover, using a long tee handle, you can open that valve and let the residual water in your pressure tank and supply lines drain back into the well.
Dave.

Have done that, and it works!

In the line, below frost level, installed the "T" and used a ball valve.
I then used copper pipe length, split the end , drilled the copper and ran a cotterpin thru a hole I drilled in the ball valve lever.
At the top, under the well cover I made a lever or handle using an elbow and short length of copper as a lever to actuate the ball valve.
Stays in the well permanantly.
Use a stainless cotter pin.

I also do a similar setup for when the owners pump water from a lake except I install the valve just a little offshore and about 2-3 ft below surface.
Gravity empties all the lines for me.

 

[keegs]

Thanks guys...

Dave, I was getting around to the drain down valve when I was shopping around and there's a premium involved of four or five hundred dollars. Do you think it money well spent? Or can I do without it?

 

[dave1949]

Thanks guys...

Dave, I was getting around to the drain down valve when I was shopping around and there's a premium involved of four or five hundred dollars. Do you think it money well spent? Or can I do without it?

You can do without it, but you have to plan for it. Like Tig said, layout the well to house supply line with the slope that will allow you to drain the line and tank. What the valve really helps do is release the vacuum formed by the water column in the well and supply line. Plus, somewhere around your pressure tank there will be a check valve that isn't going allow the water to go backwards. That will complicate your life a bit when trying to drain the supply line. There will be a boiler drain valve installed in the supply line on the well side of that check valve along with the drain down valve in the well. You could put that in either way for $2.99.

If the valve prevented you from having to replace the water line once, it will have paid for itself. To replace the line, it will have to be dug up from the well to house. There goes your landscaping. You can save some of that by running a 4" PVC pipe from your basement wall to the well, putting the supply line inside that pipe. All of this is well below frost line, for you at least 5'. The pressure tank itself is hellishly expensive but easy to drain. Wish I had a better answer on the pros and cons vs money spent.
Dave.

 

[dave1949]

Keegs,

Not to get too far down the wrong path here, were you thinking the well itself would freeze? I've never heard of that happening. But, I suppose it's possible.

The biggest problem I think comes from the air temp in your basement going below freezing, causing the water line coming in to freeze. It may freeze for some distance towards the well it that goes on for very long.

If I remember your house pic, you have a full basement with no walkout level? That would be the best case for preventing freezing. Do you plan on keeping any heat on in the house over the winter?

For about $30 you can buy a thermostatically controlled electric heater - the 'milkhouse' style with a fan. Set the thermostat so it comes on around 40* and point it at the well line in the basement.

You can also get temperature alert boxes that will place a call to your phone when the temperature falls below a certain point, or the power is out. Of course, you need a landline at the Maine house for this to work which is a downside. Greenhouses and the like use these units. You can also call the box and it will tell you the current temp, low and high temps, and power status.

Perhaps not exactly useful from NJ to ME, but it will give you something to worry about when it calls in the middle of the night - that's when they always call
Dave.

 

[studor]

Anything that will make sure you do not have freezing problems is money well spent. Last year my well line froze and thawing it was a PITA. I was very worried the line or pitless adaptor would break but luckily they stayed together -- now I have a wire heater inside the pipe that senses when heat is required and turns on -- 15 feet of that was over five hundred bucks.

 

[dave1949]

Anything that will make sure you do not have freezing problems is money well spent. Last year my well line froze and thawing it was a PITA. I was very worried the line or pitless adaptor would break but luckily they stayed together -- now I have a wire heater inside the pipe that senses when heat is required and turns on -- 15 feet of that was over five hundred bucks.

Do you think it froze because the frost got to it? I assume it's a house you live in. The guy who put my well line in says he has seen them freeze up 5' down in this area. You could be colder. His opinion is the worst situation is when you have a driveway or lane that you keep plowed crossing above the well line.
Dave.

 

[tommu56]

Yep the snow insulates the ground from the colder air.

You could put an old style galvanized tank and sniffer and check valve in the house in and have a weep hole in well pit so it will drain back every time the pump shuts off.
We had a cabin on piers that use it and we never had that line freeze up and the slug of air in the pipe kept the air in the pressure tank so it never water logged.

it might take some hunting to find an old plumber that knows these systems but they do work.

tom

 

[keegs]

You can do without it, but you have to plan for it. Like Tig said, layout the well to house supply line with the slope that will allow you to drain the line and tank. What the valve really helps do is release the vacuum formed by the water column in the well and supply line. Plus, somewhere around your pressure tank there will be a check valve that isn't going allow the water to go backwards. That will complicate your life a bit when trying to drain the supply line. There will be a boiler drain valve installed in the supply line on the well side of that check valve along with the drain down valve in the well. You could put that in either way for $2.99.

If the valve prevented you from having to replace the water line once, it will have paid for itself. To replace the line, it will have to be dug up from the well to house. There goes your landscaping. You can save some of that by running a 4" PVC pipe from your basement wall to the well, putting the supply line inside that pipe. All of this is well below frost line, for you at least 5'. The pressure tank itself is hellishly expensive but easy to drain. Wish I had a better answer on the pros and cons vs money spent.
Dave.

Thanks again for the assist Dave. I had a 2" knock out put in at the center of the rear foundation wall about 1-2 inches off the floor that's well below 5 feet from grade. I planned to put the expansion tank in this general area. My concern is with the pipe freezing in that first five feet south of the where the pipe enters the house.

My guess is that (and it's just a guess) the downward slope you guys mentioned should extend to the entry point in the well casing in order to get the water in the line away from the house regardless of whether there's a drain back valve. Unless of course the valve release is strong enough to suck all the water back down??? Do you know of any issues with these valves failing? I try to hew toward simple in these designs if possible.

I had trouble getting the foundation drain to daylight, running into some kind of shale (sedimentary) ledge along the way. I hope I don't hit the same thing here. And the PVC conduit sounds like a good idea.

All the points you raise about monitoring the place have entered my thoughts at one time or another. I had a draw string installed for a land line and there's WIFI available from a local broadband provider. I haven't decided on what to do yet with that. Until then, the diamonds and furs will be traveling back and forth with us...

 

[dave1949]

Thanks again for the assist Dave. I had a 2" knock out put in at the center of the rear foundation wall about 1-2 inches off the floor that's well below 5 feet from grade. I planned to put the expansion tank in this general area. My concern is with the pipe freezing in that first five feet south of the where the pipe enters the house.

My guess is that (and it's just a guess) the downward slope you guys mentioned should extend to the entry point in the well casing in order to get the water in the line away from the house regardless of whether there's a drain back valve. Unless of course the valve release is strong enough to suck all the water back down??? Do you know of any issues with these valves failing? I try to hew toward simple in these designs if possible.

I had trouble getting the foundation drain to daylight, running into some kind of shale (sedimentary) ledge along the way. I hope I don't hit the same thing here. And the PVC conduit sounds like a good idea.

All the points you raise about monitoring the place have entered my thoughts at one time or another. I had a draw string installed for a land line and there's WIFI available from a local broadband provider. I haven't decided on what to do yet with that. Until then, the diamonds and furs will be traveling back and forth with us...

No I don't know of any longevity problems with the drain down valves. Maybe a real plumber will chime in.

If you have a drain down valve in the well, then yes I think it would be helpful to slope the supply down from the house to the well. That will allow it to empty once you open the boiler drain valve at the house end. The drain down valve once opened will 'suck' or siphon the water back some I think, until air gets to it. Picture 'shooting' a beer

If not using the drain down valve in the well, what Tig said makes a lot of sense. Make the last 10' or so of the supply line slope down at the house end. Then, when you open the boiler drain valve, the one you need to install on the well side of the check valve, the air has a chance of displacing the water, allowing the pipe to drain towards the house for that 10' stretch or so. That should be enough to keep it from ever freezing since you are down at a good depth with your knockout.

Winterizing a home is so much fun. We had our interior plumbing filled with RV antifreeze for the winter when we had our camp. That was after the first year when the power went out and we had to replace some lines and a toilet bowl If you have the chance, get your plumbing in the house layed out to make it easy to drain down. Dump some RV antifreeze in your toilets and drain traps.

Good luck.
Dave.

 

[keegs]

If not using the drain down valve in the well, what Tig said makes a lot of sense. Make the last 10' or so of the supply line slope down at the house end. Then, when you open the boiler drain valve, the one you need to install on the well side of the check valve, the air has a chance of displacing the water, allowing the pipe to drain towards the house for that 10' stretch or so.

It does make allot of sense. Thanks gents.

 

[Tig]

We have had this place for 10 years. I got tired of plumbing surprises every year. There were unused pipes everywhere I redid the place, now it all drains into the sump pump in 20 mins.
Well still freezes if I don't/can't bury it in snow and we get a cold (-25) north wind for a few days. My well is a 30" drafty tile, water level is about 6' below ground. I plan on replacing it with a drilled well.
Drilled wells are much less prone to problems like that. If you do want extra protection at the well. A inch or more of blue foam plug below ground level would make it real tough for mother nature to mess with you.
Run a rope through the center of the plug and put a knot in it just in case you need to remove it some day. The plug does not have to fit real tight. Just enough to cut down on convection currents from the cold well casing that is above ground.

 

[keegs]

We have had this place for 10 years. I got tired of plumbing surprises every year. There were unused pipes everywhere I redid the place, now it all drains into the sump pump in 20 mins.
Well still freezes if I don't/can't bury it in snow and we get a cold (-25) north wind for a few days. My well is a 30" drafty tile, water level is about 6' below ground. I plan on replacing it with a drilled well.
Drilled wells are much less prone to problems like that. If you do want extra protection at the well. A inch or more of blue foam plug below ground level would make it real tough for mother nature to mess with you.
Run a rope through the center of the plug and put a knot in it just in case you need to remove it some day. The plug does not have to fit real tight. Just enough to cut down on convection currents from the cold well casing that is above ground.

Thanks Steve. I was considering PEX tubing for the supply lines. Word has it that PEX holds up better in freezing conditions. But my guess is it may not be as easy to get it to drain. Mabe I should reconsider...or maybe use air pressure to blow out the lines....not sure.

The plug sounds like easy cheap insurance.

A few years back here in Jersey I woke up to hearing water swishing as cars drove by the house. It wasn't raining...

The city water line to the house had been susceptable to freezing when we had exteneded periods of single digit temps. My guess is the freezing caused the pipe to fail.

The run from the house to the street is about 100'. I decided to dig it up by hand and about half way to the street discovered ledge about 18" below grade. It wasn't looking good there for a while until someone who came to look at removing the ledge got the idea to drill through it. It was about a 15'-20' run through rock. It was done in a day with the hole lined with poly pipe. I haven't had any trouble with frozen pipes since. Have a whole new appreciation for modern plumbing.

 

[studor]

My line to the well is about 4 feet underground and only about 7 feet from the basement wall. Why it chose last year to freeze is an unknown but it did. It had never frozen before. There is a thread on here somewhere about the experience. The suggestions about a well plug and covering are all good. The heater wire I put in it is designed to be retrofitted into black plastic water pipe. The place I bought it from also make heater in pipe if you are running new lines. If you have any doubts about freezing it solves the problem with very little electrical cost. Now if I am not going to be there for awhile I drain the system to the pump and rely on the heater wire to keep the line thawed. I have an insulated box over the well head now.

 

[Kays Supply]

I just started installing PEX last year. One application is in a barn loft apartment being used until the house is built. It has frozen solid several times with no damage yet. The up side is that in the application being discussed, if it didn't drain down 100% it would proably not cause any damage.

There is a drain down valve made for wells that has a "whisker" that sticks out the side. You just take a stick and push down and it lets the water drain back into the well. Pretty simple.

 

[JohninCT]

Found this info on Danfoss auto drain valve. Listed price is between $48 and $68

70 Auto Drain Valve | Danfoss Flomatic Corporation