Diesel Longevity worth the increased maintenance costs

   / Diesel Longevity worth the increased maintenance costs #41  
Diesel still has well over 10% more energy than gasoline.
Point well taken.

Energy (efficiency) output yes, MPG no. Higher MPG with today's diesels is not there. I have been burning diesel since 2000 and the best I got was 16 MPG and the consistant worse since 2003 is 12 - 13 MPG (GM product). The 2007 I have now is getting a proud 12.3 - 12.8 avg MPG. Over-the-road trucks are getting 4.5 - 6.5 MPG plus or minus a bit but the figure itself is still relatively low.

Diesels just do not get the MPG of fuel in today's trucks. If they do, please send me a link to the nearest dealer for whatever product gets these proclaimed 20 + MPG. I'd be happy to make or break the 15 MPG barrier in my current LBZ model of GM's diesel. I have succumb to the fact that MPG is not in my concerns for my needs of a diesel fueled engine.

Longevity of 300k miles is also a far stretch of the imagination for engine service without losing a percentage of the reliability factor. Once that drops for me, I have to find a more reliable machine. Eighty-five - 90% reliablity is a must for me. Broken on a cold night out on the road is not in my risk plan.
 
   / Diesel Longevity worth the increased maintenance costs #42  
Another wonderful thing is when the injectors are not completely torqued in the head causing the injector tubes to leak combustion into the cooling system. Again, often misdiagnosed as a bad HG, head, EGR cooler etc. Great.

5 years I've been dealing with the 6.0 and I've never heard of that being a common issue.

I've heard more oil rails being tightened too much causing a small oil leak that causes a contribution/balance error.

If companies made SIMPLE vehicles that were reliable, no one would buy them because they would be underpowered, plain and you'd not get power locks, power steering, AC or a fancy radio with MP3 inputs. The cost of all these features is more opportunity for failure and unfortunately sometimes with a big bill.


I must know alot of no ones then because I know quite a few people that are actually buying those vehicles because they don't want the extra electronics stuff.

I'm sure that if my grandfather was still alive he would be one of those and he was a firm believer in more electronics means more chances for failure(which is debatable, but I'll leave that for another day).

Myself, I use my autoenginuity and don't worry about it. I've been able to do almost everything to my truck that's been needed(that's alot of stuff, because about the only thing still stock on my truck is one tail gate badge and the sticker's on the valve covers).

GreatWhitehunter said:
The ironic part about the head bolt failure's is fords position. If the truck is under warranty they use the same darn bolts. These engineer's 100% know that they need aftermarket studs torqued properly.

If you want to complain about the TTY bolts and why Ford continues to install them, you have to ask International on that one. While we deal with Ford, International is really the final say on that and I'm willing to bet that even though the 6.0 has fewer bolts then the 7.3, they are going to say that it's the fact that Ford has the tuning on the trucks so high that is causing them to stretch and not the TTY bolts themselves(which does have some merit to it) that are truly the issue.

GreatWhitehunter said:
These engineer's 100% know that they need aftermarket studs torqued properly.

If that was true then there wouldn't be a huge population of 6.0 owners that still are on their original bolts if without a doubt they truly needed them.

I'm going to say this, when my truck was stock I didn't have one issue, not one either with the oil cooler, egr cooler, headbolts, turbo etc and no mods along the lines of a coolant filter(still don't have one, on the original cooler(actually both of them as I still have my EGR cooler as well)). Now since I've been hitting over 500hp that's a different story, but that's all me as I'm the one that pushed it beyond stock. I only know(personally mind you) of a handful of people that have had the issues that have been mentioned here and were totally stock. What I also know is that they were grocery getters as well. Not good for a truck that is intended to be used as a work truck and that has equipment that needs to be worked(need to every now and then rev and build up boost to help clean the EGR valve and keep the vanes from sticking on the VGT turbo). The people that actually use the truck for work, know how to drive the newer diesels only 1 has had problems and that was due to casting sand. Only 1. Now this are just the ones that I know personally and have personal knowledge with as I helped most of them through these issues.


I also know significantly more people that have had issues with TTY bolts and tranny(which is rare on one of these in stock form) that were due to using shift on the fly in-line fuel modules and tuners that weren't custom tuning the truck(the TS really favors custom tuning). Now here is the thing about them. They get on the internet boards and piss and moan about how crappy the truck is this that and the other and make it seem like they truly believe that their tuner(or module) with the crappy programming had nothing to do with it. That further compounds the issue of what is International going to do with warranty work, when you have a very good size population of truck owners that use unauthorized power enhancing modifications, have issues that could very well have been caused by how those owners drived with their new found power? This causes the up and up honesty truck owner problems that aren't of their own creation.

On many many levels, this isn't clear cut. We would like to think it's black and white and clear cut, but it's not.
 
   / Diesel Longevity worth the increased maintenance costs #43  
Energy (efficiency) output yes, MPG no. Higher MPG with today's diesels is not there. I have been burning diesel since 2000 and the best I got was 16 MPG and the consistant worse since 2003 is 12 - 13 MPG (GM product). The 2007 I have now is getting a proud 12.3 - 12.8 avg MPG. Over-the-road trucks are getting 4.5 - 6.5 MPG plus or minus a bit but the figure itself is still relatively low.

First off, MPGs are highly individual. I know people that I've hand-calculated that get 18, 19, 20 mpgs. I consistently get 16 empty and 13 towing(actually not bad for a 500hp 4.30 geared DRW), but that's what I get. You might take my same vehicle and get something totally different with the situation you throw it in.

The biggest reason why I don't buy into average mpg claims or any mpg claims except my own because at the end of the day that's all that matters.

Longevity of 300k miles is also a far stretch of the imagination for engine service without losing a percentage of the reliability factor. Once that drops for me, I have to find a more reliable machine. Eighty-five - 90% reliablity is a must for me. Broken on a cold night out on the road is not in my risk plan.

I've had my share of issues after I really started modding the **** out of the truck, but I've never been left on the side of the road with the 6.0. It has always gotten me and my cargo home despite the abuse I put her through. I can't say the same for the 5.9 or the 7.3.

EDIT: Boy this thing is really sensitive to language, I didn't use the four letter word that you might be thinking I used. I'll say it like I used to say it as a young kid: h.e. double hockey sticks.
 
   / Diesel Longevity worth the increased maintenance costs #44  
I too know a number of people, who buy NEW vehicles, who would by the more reliable, less optioned vehicle if geven the choice, myself included!

There is a huge difference between TTY and T-n-T...

TTY = Torque To Yeild, the current INDUSTRY STANDARD for head and connecting rod bolts. EVERY engine manufacturer uses them, although not in every product. Why? More clamping load and "elasticity" of the clamping load that a "regular" bolt CANNOT duplicate, period. TTY bolts are, with very few exceptions, SINGLE USE fasteners. Once ful torque is applied, and they are loosened, you replace them. TTY bolts are almost always idenfiyable by a "reduced shanke diameter" area somewhere on the bolt shank. This is often just "below" the bolt head or between the threaded portions of a double ended stud. In rare cases, the reduction area is actually immediately under the bolt-head, showing as what is often referred to as an "undercut". Every TTY fastener I have seen in 25+ years, REQUIRED a T-n-T procedure.

T-n-T = Torque aNd Turn, this is also becomming a standard. It provides a more accurate measure of the actual clamping force applied. Most fasteners that use a T-n-T procedure are reuseable, but again no TTY bolts are (unless specifically approved for re-use by the manufacturer). Unless you read the book (RTB), there is no way to know if you should be using a T-n-T procedure.

TTY + TnT are AWESOME, but nothing is bullet proof (well the 7.3L PSD came close :) ).
 
   / Diesel Longevity worth the increased maintenance costs #45  
The International version of the Ford 6.0L is the VT365, it actually has HIGER MEP than the Ford varient and ZERO HG or headbolt issues.

In almost every case, a leaking HG in a VT365 can be followed back to an overheat, low coolant or overspeed event. Not EVERY case mind you, but nearly so.

The EGR coolers are only an issue because of contamination in the coolant that restritcs flow thru the oil and EGR coolers causing abnormally high temperatures in the EGR cooler leading to boiling of the coolant (puking).

Another wonderful thing is when the injectors are not completely torqued in the head causing the injector tubes to leak combustion into the cooling system. Again, often misdiagnosed as a bad HG, head, EGR cooler etc. Great.

No engine, gas or diesel will operate "a couple of hundred thousand miles without any major expense", well at least not the mosts of them. Parts fail, it does NOT mean they are defective, it may be, but more likely the part wore out. Wear is inevitable and the more parts you put into a vehicle (emissions, power locks, etc) the more opportunity for failure you have.

If companies made SIMPLE vehicles that were reliable, no one would buy them because they would be underpowered, plain and you'd not get power locks, power steering, AC or a fancy radio with MP3 inputs. The cost of all these features is more opportunity for failure and unfortunately sometimes with a big bill.

I have a 95 ford Escort with 224,000 miles on it. It has never had the head off and other than a timing belt it has required only regular maintenance items. I have a 95 Chevy extended cab 2 wheel drive 350 v8 automatic with 195,000 miles on it that I use as a farm truck. Pretty much the same experience, although it did need an alternator at around 140,000 miles. My daughter-inlaw drives a Chevy S-10 with a 4.3 that is showing 314,000 miles on the odometer, no major problems. The guys that built my pole barn have Ford V-10's 2 of them, one has 420,000+ miles on it and the other one has 345,000 on it, no major problems. I don't consider an couple hundred bucks to get an alternator or a water pump replaced a major problem, and I know belt tensioner pully bearings (sealed for life ;););) ) and such are to be expected, although my escort has neede neither of those things, but my neighbor spent $2800 to get his transmission replaced....twice on his $45,000 Deisel truck at less than 120,000 miles, when it went out for the third time with the exact same problem, he traded it in on another brand. He pulled only a 10 foot utility trailer to do craft shows with his wife. It is the same size as the one I pull with my 4 cylinder Sonoma.

You might expect sand in your castings in a 4 wheel drive Chinees made tractor that costs $5000, although I havent found any in mine yet, but if I were to pay 10 times that much I think it is reasonable to expect better quality.

I don't consider failure of power locks or a CD player to be a big deal, but when people have to dig in their pockets to come up with thousands of dollars to keep a low mileage almost new $50,000 trucks motor or transmission operating, that is just wrong.

People will buy the plain vehicles if they have a chance and perhaps have a limited budget. Dealers don't order them that way because there is much less profit in them. They don't have much interest in selling them. My dealer had to do a dealer trade with a dealer 400 miles away to find a one ton dually extended cab 8' box, stripped down the way I like them. Diesel engine, automatic transmission, rubber floor mats, crank up windows, cruise control, tilt wheel, trailer towing package and the simplest radio/cd that was offered. (I rarely use it).

Doing so allowed me to buy a truck for $29,000 that looks identical to the $44,000 trucks that were parked next to it when I picked it up, yet when I use it to do truck things it does the same job. I am doing without $15,000 worth of "fluff". I origionaly wanted a standard transmission but nobody could find me one anywhere.:eek:

I have limited resources, the money I saved by not buying all the extra "fluff" paid for Harley Softail Nightrain and my 4 wheel drive tractor.:cool:

To each his own, but I have seen many newer (1990-2009) high mileage vehicles of various manufactures that have required zero major mechanical repairs in 200,000 miles. Perhaps my expectations are unreasonable, but that is what I base my purchasing decisions on when buying the best the manufacturer has to offer.:D
 
   / Diesel Longevity worth the increased maintenance costs #46  
Tex, you can honestly be telling me that the trucks only last if your towing
10k all day everyday uphill both ways. I bought this truck to work and drive.
And I bought it from Ford not International. I really don't care who bumped up the HP it should come ready to run from Ford without a need to make aftermarket mods. My truck is bone stock I use it almost once a week in the spring,summer,fall to haul. If "knowing how to drive a new diesel" is key then where does Ford or International state this? Also there are plenty of stock trucks out there experianceing these issues.

Matt:rolleyes:
 
   / Diesel Longevity worth the increased maintenance costs #47  
Matt

I feel bad you have had such trouble. I have had zero issues with my 2 6.0's except for a bad dash cluster on the 06 F-350. It was fixed instantly with a cluster from a truck sitting on the lot. I have ran chips, exhaust, and intakes since 5K and run dyno Dello 400 oil doing changes every 5K. I work them hard but take care of them. They even get a car wash once a week or so. I am still running the stock head bolts. I even take the 04 F-250 to the drag strip from time to time. She weighs 7,500# and will run 14.1 @ 98.00 mph and will kill my friends stock Camero.

The 6.0 really got a bad rap but like Tex stated there are many out there that have been trouble free. I know of quite a few and then again I know of a few that have had issues. Getting a good tech to work on them when they do break is key.

The Dmax got great reviews so I tried one. What a mistake. I had issues that make your truck look great and had to sell it after 9 months because it was just not reliable for work. What I am saying is sometimes you win and sometimes you do no.

As for the EGR. I am by no means a expert but I think my 04 has one but on the 05 and later like my 06 F-350 they eliminated them. I would look for a EGR delete kit and just be done with it if possible.

Chris
 
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   / Diesel Longevity worth the increased maintenance costs #48  
EDIT: Boy this thing is really sensitive to language, I didn't use the four letter word that you might be thinking I used. I'll say it like I used to say it as a young kid: h.e. double hockey sticks.

Not sensitive. TBN just has higher standards than other websites. :)
 
   / Diesel Longevity worth the increased maintenance costs #49  
Point well taken.

Energy (efficiency) output yes, MPG no. Higher MPG with today's diesels is not there. I have been burning diesel since 2000 and the best I got was 16 MPG and the consistant worse since 2003 is 12 - 13 MPG (GM product). The 2007 I have now is getting a proud 12.3 - 12.8 avg MPG. Over-the-road trucks are getting 4.5 - 6.5 MPG plus or minus a bit but the figure itself is still relatively low.

Diesels just do not get the MPG of fuel in today's trucks. If they do, please send me a link to the nearest dealer for whatever product gets these proclaimed 20 + MPG. I'd be happy to make or break the 15 MPG barrier in my current LBZ model of GM's diesel. I have succumb to the fact that MPG is not in my concerns for my needs of a diesel fueled engine.

Longevity of 300k miles is also a far stretch of the imagination for engine service without losing a percentage of the reliability factor. Once that drops for me, I have to find a more reliable machine. Eighty-five - 90% reliablity is a must for me. Broken on a cold night out on the road is not in my risk plan.

I find your observations interesting as I have found that the new GM diesel that I have first hand knowledge of is still getting a ~50% better mileage than the gas alternative.
 
   / Diesel Longevity worth the increased maintenance costs #50  
Well considering this is a tractor site, the proof is in the pudding as to whether diesels are more cost effective than gassers.
Anyone making a gas powered tractor anymore ?

As far as new diesels and MPGs go, I've got a new 07 6.7 L Cummins in my service body truck and only get between 10 and 12 mpg around town, it does go way up on highway but am almost never on highway. I'm not thrilled with the mileage but know for sure it would be far less with a gasser, since the truck weighs 12,000 lbs everyday, and I drive it like a go-cart, enjoying the awesome power.

For those who say they will stick with the older diesels, they probably have not driven the new ones. These things are a dream to drive, I'll sacrifice some of the longevity if necessary to have this to drive now. someone mentioned brake life, with Cummins VGT (acts as engine brake) and Aisin's tow haul mode, I almost don't need the service brakes, especially on hills :) :) :)

JB.
 

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