wire guage simple question

   / wire guage simple question #41  
in case you didn't find the coneyor belt post it was a hypothetical post about an airplane taking off on a conveyor belt.. etc..

yep.. no offense intended.

soundguy


Soundguy,
There was no offense taken on my behalf and as far as I'm concerned I consider that any prior posts were made with good intentions plus I noticed the smiley faces. One thing though is that I almost went blind looking for reference to the "magic conveyor belt" before I gave up. :D
Take care,
Jim
 
   / wire guage simple question #42  
is it really necescary to wire a tractor using aircraft standards? I suspect it would not be practical...

soundguy

Of course it is not necessary (or typically particularly practical or cost effective) to wire a tractor to aircraft standards. Whether or not it is practical to do so in some repair or mod situation as a particular instance is a separate issue to be judged on its own merits. In general it does no harm to work to a higher standard than the "norm" (lowest common denominator) except a little more $ and time which may be well invested or excessive depending on the degree to which it is taken and any "return" on the investment.

Take for example the widespread use of insulation displacement splices, typically crimped on with pliers or a hammer, that are widely used in automotive after-market installations as well as new construction in trailers. It is not uncommon to see these used on tractor wiring (not typically OEM.) It is not a question of whether or not they will fail but when will they fail.

There are solder joints and then there are good solder joints and then there are NASA quality solder joints. Doing more than the bare minimum is not a bad thing. You and I may tend to use solder joints where proper crimped connections are as good or better. I have had experience with crimped connections that failed: wires that fell out of the splice after crimping, cut conductors, damaged insulation on insulated splices and terminals and on and on... mostly preventable with proper use of proper tools. With a modicum of care I (and I'm sure your soldering technique is adequate given your long term success) have high confidence in my solder joints.

After the praise of our soldering I still like crimped connections in many applications. There are now readily available crimp-on insulated butt splices that are designed for underwater use such as in wiring a submerged well pump. These are good for automotive and tractor use and are impervious to Immersion in mud and water or road salt. They look like and are applied like regular insulated butt splices but there is a heat liquefying sealant on the inside of the plastic insulation. The plastic insulation itself is shrink plastic.

So, after crimping these on you heat the splice and the insulation shrinks down and the inner sealant liquefies and oozes out the ends forming a hermetic seal. If you damage the insulation during crimping you still get water tight integrity as the sealant flows out through the holes you have made in the plastic and seals them (in all cases I have observed.) These are way faster to install than to make a proper solder joint and then insulate with shrink. DIY heat shrinked solder joints are NOT typically water proof just fairly water resistant unless you do something like inject silicone seal inside the shrink before heating which is a lot more hassle than the water proof shrink covered butt splices. There is shrink tubing with sealant inside and this is better than regular shrink but not as handy as the water proof splices.

I don't think the poster was arguing in favor of A/C standards for all tractor wiring or even for all DIY mods and repairs. His comments regarding crimped connections being superior to soldered connections in a high vibration environment are correct. Given the skill of the average DIY repair person I'd expect their crimping ability to exceed their soldering ability and make crimping a better choice. For old pros like ourselves with good soldering skills, we have the option to get a high quality joint either way.

++++ Oh by the way... I have exercised my new HF hydraulic wire splice crimper (12 through 00 ga including AWG 7) and I am impressed with it.

Pat
 
   / wire guage simple question #43  
is i++++ Oh by the way... I have exercised my new HF hydraulic wire splice crimper (12 through 00 ga including AWG 7) and I am impressed with it.

Pat
i
Is it possible to get a link to that machine?
 
   / wire guage simple question #44  
Solder is a fine thing in its place and done right.

If flexibility and vibration are not issues I have been known to use a short piece of copper tubing as a but splice (with or without crimping), applying heat with a torch to the copper tubing and feeding in the flux cored solder at both ends of the tubing. A propane torch or even oxy-acetylene can be used to heat the tube so fast that you can get solder in both ends and get proper flow before the heat or solder flows too far up the wires. The advantages of the copper tube are that it takes the heat well allowing you to use much more intense heat and get the job done without overheating the two wires and the tube protects the small strands from the intense heat of the torch.

I also use short lengths of copper tubing to make ring terminals: insert wire part way into the tube and crimp or hammer it flat. Solder the wire to the tube as above and then drill a hole in the flattened part of the tube that doesn't have wire in it. This is easy to do and makes connections that have lasted me for decades and I have never had a failure. Saves considerable $ too as large ring terminals are expensive and little scraps of copper tubing aren't.

How am I going to splice my #4 and #6 wires? I guarantee it will not be wire nuts.

I have recently purchased a hydraulic crimper with a set of dies to cover 12 ga to double ought. I am not happy with the high cost of store bought butt splices for the larger wires but... I don't have to do all that many.

Pat
I didn't happen to notice anything about cleaning of the residual flux to help prevent corrosion. No warnings in this entire thread against using silicone's with a vinegar smell either. :rolleyes: Proper prep and cleanup account for the bulk of the job :)

No mention of solder seal connectors or crimp AND solder either.
 
   / wire guage simple question #45  
is i++++ Oh by the way... I have exercised my new HF hydraulic wire splice crimper (12 through 00 ga including AWG 7) and I am impressed with it.

Pat
i
Is it possible to get a link to that machine?
go to harborfreight.com type in hydraulic crimper in the search window or try this...

- Harbor Freight Tools - Quality Tools at the Lowest Prices

I have a portable hand held electro-hydraulic rebar shear that cuts through rebar up to 3/4 and larger like they were warm butter. If it only had interchangeable dies it would make a great crimper.

Of course I have no clue how long the tool will last but I don't do thousands of crimps on really big wire so it may never fail in my service. Hydraulic jack technology is not exactly new or cutting edge so no reason to suspect it is not a good example. It is essentially a small hydraulic jack spring loaded to return to the open positioin when you turn the control knob from close to open. It gives you a tremendous mechanical (hydraulic?) advantage and you don't have to be Hercules to crimp a welding cable. I haven't yet tried it on the crimp splices I use for repairing fences but I suspect it will do a really great job if I select the right dies. It comes with dies for the following AWG wire sizes: 12, 10, 8, 7, 6, 4, 2, 0, and 00.

Anyone use 7 ga wire? I don't recall having seen any.

Is is cheaper than a decent PEX crimper and I wish it could be fitted with dies for crimping PEX fittings. It will fit into smaller spaces than my PEX crimpers and would be easier to squeeze.

Pat
 
   / wire guage simple question #46  
I didn't happen to notice anything about cleaning of the residual flux to help prevent corrosion. No warnings in this entire thread against using silicone's with a vinegar smell either. :rolleyes: Proper prep and cleanup account for the bulk of the job :)

No mention of solder seal connectors or crimp AND solder either.



not all fluxes are corosive.. but ditto on the rtv...

soundguy
 
   / wire guage simple question #47  
not all fluxes are corosive.. but ditto on the rtv...

soundguy

I don't think that there is ANY flux in flux cored solder that is approved for electrical connections that is corrosive.

Some RTV puts out acetic acid on contact with the moisture required for a cure. Once that is dissipated there is no residual problem. Wire, even multi-strand, properly tinned, should be OK unless the RTV application is out of control. If in doubt, use a different sealant. I have on occasion put shrink over a splice and then placed a second piece of shrink over that but with silicone inside the second piece. No silicone to copper contact so the evil acetic acid doesn't get a shot at the copper but the joint is waterproof.

With the easy availability of heat shrink tubing with the heat melted inner coating of sealant or the waterproof butt splices (even Harbor Freight sells them) there is not much need for silicone seal to waterproof a connection.

Pat
 
   / wire guage simple question #48  
Since he mentioned corosive flux I just assumed he was thinking of liquid brush on cleanei or paste fluxes, not the rosin ones inside the flux cored solder That was my guess anyway..

soundguy

I don't think that there is ANY flux in flux cored solder that is approved for electrical connections that is corrosive.

Some RTV puts out acetic acid on contact with the moisture required for a cure. Once that is dissipated there is no residual problem. Wire, even multi-strand, properly tinned, should be OK unless the RTV application is out of control. If in doubt, use a different sealant. I have on occasion put shrink over a splice and then placed a second piece of shrink over that but with silicone inside the second piece. No silicone to copper contact so the evil acetic acid doesn't get a shot at the copper but the joint is waterproof.

With the easy availability of heat shrink tubing with the heat melted inner coating of sealant or the waterproof butt splices (even Harbor Freight sells them) there is not much need for silicone seal to waterproof a connection.

Pat
 
   / wire guage simple question #49  
Since he mentioned corosive flux I just assumed he was thinking of liquid brush on cleanei or paste fluxes, not the rosin ones inside the flux cored solder That was my guess anyway..

soundguy

Oh yeah, probably so but just to be sure we don't leave out something important... Corrosive fluxes are not normally intended for use in electrical soldering. There are paste fluxes (AKA paste solder or soloder paste) that are a blend of proper electrical flux AND finely divided solder particles and these are intended for electrical/electronic use but they are NOT corrosive.

Corrosive fluxes are typically intended for soldering galvanized metal as well as brass and copper plumbing fittings and similar. Although there is flux cored solder with corrosive flux it is NOT intended for electronic work, just plumbing, sheet metal and such.

There was at one time (may still be for all I know) somewhat corrosive fluxes used in production wave soldering equipment for circuit boards but the boards were washed and rinsed subsequent to the wave soldering process so corrosion was not an issue, if done right.

Wave soldering - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Pat
 
   / wire guage simple question #50  
wave soldering is neat.. I worked at a place that had a wave solder vat....

soundguy
 

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