why dont they just put it in Nuetral?

[JasG]

CNC isn't as predictable as you say. I have a Mazak mill with a control problem that after 3 tech's worked on it for almost 2 weeks they still couldn't figure out what was wrong and have referred the problem to the engineers in Japan. That was 3 months ago and they still don't have a answer. The controls today are very complex, couple that with multiple platform operating systems trying to talk to each other and it's almost impossible to predict what could go wrong. :confused2:

I never once said CNC was predictable, as a matter of fact I said just the opposite. What I said was programming is repeatable, if it did it once it would do it again at a regular interval. Basically if you read my comments in full you will see that, including the part about an E-stop. Unexpected is another way of saying unpredictable. I even said it could litterally be one of hundreds of things and listed a few examples.

You make my point for me, if it is a true control issue you are having with your machine, then it's probably not programming.

On another note I can sympathize with the mill problem. The company I work for has German, American, Italian, and Japanese routing and milling machines. All different operator controls, software, hardware and logic. Each has had issues that you can spend weeks on to find why something isn't working. Each OEM has different systems and styles of putting things together. Now you throw in programs and operators and it takes a few minutes just to see where the problem is. Again, not saying it's never programming, it'd just if it is I can make it do it again.

The scary part to me is, this is the way cars are being built today. All electric contols, not mechanical linkage or "hard" overrides.

 

[Diamondpilot]

I hate to tell you that most commercial airliners are throttle and steer by wire. Of course they all have 2-3 backup systems. Seeing cars with throttle by wire, brake by wire, and steer by wire is here to stay. The problem is there is no backup on cars. The systems just need re-evaluated and parameters need to be added for the what ifs?

Driver training will solve 99% of the problems.

Chris

 

[zzvyb6]

Another way to view this problem is a comparison to Windows. When everything is working normally and you run just simple programs and tools, there's not much to go wrong. When you get a 'bad' ad in Internet Explorer, and you have multiple sessions open and McAffee is updating and Adobe is installing and Defender is defending and the machine hangs, and you have clicked on everything with no response. The casue and effect is the same. Remember the "Blue Screen of Death" in Windows 2000? All you disbelievers make the false presumption that the your window has 'focus' (i.e. it has control and has options for disposing of problems with memory, cache overruns, cluster fragmentation and buffer overruns. Because the throttle, brake, navigation, air, fuel and ignition interrupts can't get 'focus', you can get the situation that's going on. There is no single cause of this and getting the root causes will take some ingenuity not generally observed in that culture. They're great copiers, but not so great inovators. I have 30+ years trying to deal with the 'home' core engineering department. All you have to do is lose speed signal and you can guess what the throttle algorithm would be demanding....

 

[ccsial]

I hate to tell you that most commercial airliners are throttle and steer by wire. Of course they all have 2-3 backup systems. Seeing cars with throttle by wire, brake by wire, and steer by wire is here to stay. The problem is there is no backup on cars. The systems just need re-evaluated and parameters need to be added for the what ifs?

Driver training will solve 99% of the problems.

Chris

Some aircraft have up to 6 flight computers and vote on every action. Cars could never afford this.

Automobiles should put a red E-Stop on the dash like we do on machine tools. That button does NOT go into the computer, it kills power.

My company has done systems for gaming and medical industries and the software has to be certified. A team of people go over every line of code. They think of things our engineers didn't. I'm pretty sure the aircraft industry does this too. In fact I understand that in aircraft the flight control systems are supplied by different vendors and are different engineering models. This certification process might be coming for the auto industry since life and limb are at stake. Get your wallets out.

I don't mind throttle and shift by wire but I'll draw the line at steering.

 

[turbo36]

I never once said CNC was predictable, as a matter of fact I said just the opposite. What I said was programming is repeatable, if it did it once it would do it again at a regular interval. Basically if you read my comments in full you will see that, including the part about an E-stop. Unexpected is another way of saying unpredictable. I even said it could litterally be one of hundreds of things and listed a few examples.

You make my point for me, if it is a true control issue you are having with your machine, then it's probably not programming.

On another note I can sympathize with the mill problem. The company I work for has German, American, Italian, and Japanese routing and milling machines. All different operator controls, software, hardware and logic. Each has had issues that you can spend weeks on to find why something isn't working. Each OEM has different systems and styles of putting things together. Now you throw in programs and operators and it takes a few minutes just to see where the problem is. Again, not saying it's never programming, it'd just if it is I can make it do it again.

The scary part to me is, this is the way cars are being built today. All electric contols, not mechanical linkage or "hard" overrides.

The programming may be repeatable but the outcome isn't always predictable. I have seen times where for no reason we start to get variation and the only way to cure it is too power down and clear the memory. Some of my machines require power conditioners or they do all kinds of weird things, others are rock solid during a power fluctuation with no problems. On one lathe we had the turret run into the headstock in the middle of a production run. No one was within 15 foot of the machine, made a heck of a bang and tore the ball screw right out of the casting. Could never explain what happened.

 

[Regal]

I hate to tell you that most commercial airliners are throttle and steer by wire. Of course they all have 2-3 backup systems. Seeing cars with throttle by wire, brake by wire, and steer by wire is here to stay. The problem is there is no backup on cars. The systems just need re-evaluated and parameters need to be added for the what ifs?

Driver training will solve 99% of the problems.

Chris

The difference being---- Air liner manufacturers aren't trying to nickel and dime there product.

 

[BobRip]

The difference being---- Air liner manufacturers aren't trying to nickel and dime there product.

The car manufactures (specifically Toyotoa) use dual microprocessors in the throttle control. Also there are not 8 million airplanes running the same software. The failure rate we are seeing in Toyotas would not even by noticed if there were only a few thousand cars.

 

[SPYDERLK]

Oh, I see now, it's as simply as using one hand to hold the steering wheel at 100mph, grab the shift lever with the other hand and move it to neutral and hold it there, then push the start button with my third hand. Right, got it , thanks coach!:laughing:

Yes, if you try you can figure out a combination that wont work. I think Id just skip the 3rd hand thing and do either the button or neutral. Both arent necessary.
larry

 

[SPYDERLK]

I never could understand why so many people hit deer on the roads. If you watch where you are going, pay attention and look out I don't see how you can hit a deer. Must be just stupid, untrained drivers that just don't know how to control a car when they see a deer. They must just panic because they have never been trained on how to drive around deer. Just watch out, steer your car, use the brakes and pay attention and theres no way in heck that all these deer-car collisions should be happening.

Think of different terrain. Think of Darwin Award deer.
larry

 

[JB4310]

This would usually be a comment I would make. But, aren't most of the Toyota's actually made over here to begin with? I mean, I know they are are a Japanese company, but is the Prius and the other affected cars imported, or made in Toyota's southern United States plants?

Yeah I'm sure your probably right, wonder how much the actual profit is that goes back to the parent company, probably not all that much, 10% of the toatl cost? It's more a symbolic position.