dcyrilc
Elite Member
The smallest equipment we have at work are backhoes and they are over 10K# so that might be why we were told no straps.
Does This Make Anyone Else Nervous Besides Me?
- Thread starter bp fick
- Start date
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The smallest equipment we have at work are backhoes and they are over 10K# so that might be why we were told no straps.
buckeyefarmer
Epic Contributor
Has to be someone from Ohio State!
Go Bucks!
Whats max tongue weight on an element 150 - 200 LBS?
2008 Elements GCWR = 5083
2008 Element GVWR = 4450
2008 Element Max Tow = 1500
2008 Element GAWR Rear = 2205
Do the very simple math,
given driver , fuel , any cargo (no matter how small) That element should not be towing anything over 500lbs.(if even that).. and I'm not even addressing any additional 10% safety buffer. Now throw in the Tractor /Trailer setup the picture is showing, The element is going to Grossly exceed GCWR long before it reaches any max Tow capabilities(which at 1500 I would question to begin with).
Sorry went away and as suggested had a beer and thought about it .. yep still a black and white issue for me. Throw in a trailer with no Brakes = Idiot endangering everyone on the road.
With regards to citing a suit where a private person was held libel for an accident due to over weighted rigs
the reason people have a hard time answering directly is they are filed under wrongful Death or personal injury suits as example, where overweight is only one of many contributing factors argued that caused an accident. The prosecutor only has to prove the operator knew the limits and knowingly choose to exceed them. If it’s proven that you knowingly exceeded the manufacturer’s ratings in any way, it can easily be argued that constitutes negligence on your part in the event of an accident. If you think I'm exaggerating pick up the yellow pages and call any ambulance chasing attorney of your choosing and ask them.
Watch how fast your insurance company runs not walks away and abandons you , leaving you holding the bag for all damages.
With regards to earlier post from 20 20 .. yes I have gone over speed limit as previously stated .. yes I am wrong.. and yes if I cause an accident I am culpable. Two wrongs don't make a right. I am going away now to have another beer.
2008 Elements GCWR = 5083
2008 Element GVWR = 4450
2008 Element Max Tow = 1500
2008 Element GAWR Rear = 2205
Do the very simple math,
given driver , fuel , any cargo (no matter how small) That element should not be towing anything over 500lbs.(if even that).. and I'm not even addressing any additional 10% safety buffer. Now throw in the Tractor /Trailer setup the picture is showing, The element is going to Grossly exceed GCWR long before it reaches any max Tow capabilities(which at 1500 I would question to begin with).
Sorry went away and as suggested had a beer and thought about it .. yep still a black and white issue for me. Throw in a trailer with no Brakes = Idiot endangering everyone on the road.
With regards to citing a suit where a private person was held libel for an accident due to over weighted rigs
the reason people have a hard time answering directly is they are filed under wrongful Death or personal injury suits as example, where overweight is only one of many contributing factors argued that caused an accident. The prosecutor only has to prove the operator knew the limits and knowingly choose to exceed them. If it’s proven that you knowingly exceeded the manufacturer’s ratings in any way, it can easily be argued that constitutes negligence on your part in the event of an accident. If you think I'm exaggerating pick up the yellow pages and call any ambulance chasing attorney of your choosing and ask them.
Watch how fast your insurance company runs not walks away and abandons you , leaving you holding the bag for all damages.
With regards to earlier post from 20 20 .. yes I have gone over speed limit as previously stated .. yes I am wrong.. and yes if I cause an accident I am culpable. Two wrongs don't make a right. I am going away now to have another beer.
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wvpolekat
Platinum Member
If this is referring to my statement, it isn't what I was referring to. I have never seen a case where a non-commercial vehicle was cited for being overweight, or if they even could be. I am sure someone will tell me that they can be, but I have yet to see anyone produce an actual case where this happened. There are plenty of full time RVers that are over basically all of the factory ratings, yet they never seem to get cited. They are easy enough to spot.
I have no idea if LE cares about the weight ratings on the door sticker for non-commercial vehicles. They certainly don't seem to from everything I have seen.
I stand corrected (I actually did the math rather than take the swag )
here is what I came up - Not 500lbs as I previously stated but 930lbs.
Feel free to correct me if you think it's calculated wrong.
But either way I don't want my point lost ,
You will reach GCWR with that setup in the picture long before you reach max Tow.
Elements curb weight is between 3500 and 3600 LBS depending on options
add Diver say 180 lbs , Add fuel (approx 6 lbs per gal) so lets say 1/2 tank = 48 LBS .Total so far no cargo , and no tongue weight = approx 3900 lbs
So for grins lets say 150 lbs of tongue weight and we'll stick with no cargo.
Now we are a 4050 lbs (just 400 lbs shy of GVWR)
NOW LETS add 10% safety factor buffer 103lbs (Just cause we all want to remain safe to protect us and others)
Now we are at 4153 (just 297 shy of GVWR or 397 if you want to exclude safety factor).
So with a GVWR somewhere between 4050 and 4153 and a GCWR is stated as 5083
Trailer, Tractor , BOX , FEL, chains, should not exceed some where around 930 plus or minus a bit,
What do you think that trailer weighs?
What do you thing that tractor weighs?
what do you think that FEL weighs ?
What do you think those chains weigh?
What do you think the Box Weighs?
Hmm wonder if the tires have fluid in them.
Anyway you get my point
Like I said you will be Grossly over and reach GCWR no matter how you distribute weight even not adding safety factor long before you reach anywhere near Max Tow.
Not Grossly. only the weight of the driver and the fuel(if it isn;t already figutrd in the curb weight). So really only ~200 pounds.
OP
bp fick
Super Member
http://www.mytractorforum.com/showthread.php?t=101002
When I saw this thread, on the other forum, I was surprised how almost no one mentioned the possible towing issues. Because I have the same tractor, and virtually the same Honda vehicle, it struck me as odd. That is why I posted it here.
The tractor, MMM, FEL, Ballast box, and after market ramps total 2200 lbs, give or take. The owner stated the carrying capacity of the little snowmobile trailer was 1500 lbs. I knew the towing capacity of the Element was 1500 lbs, as that is also the towing capacity of my Honda. That Element is towing close to 3000 lbs; the weight of the trailer (800 lbs?), plus the 2200 lbs of gear.
So, the the trailer is carrying 50% over its stated capability and the Element is towing twice its rating.
When I first saw it, it struck me, that's all. Struck me as too much. I took it to heart to not do the same, if I ever tow my tractor. I simply took it as a learning experience and a lesson. That's all.
When I saw this thread, on the other forum, I was surprised how almost no one mentioned the possible towing issues. Because I have the same tractor, and virtually the same Honda vehicle, it struck me as odd. That is why I posted it here.
The tractor, MMM, FEL, Ballast box, and after market ramps total 2200 lbs, give or take. The owner stated the carrying capacity of the little snowmobile trailer was 1500 lbs. I knew the towing capacity of the Element was 1500 lbs, as that is also the towing capacity of my Honda. That Element is towing close to 3000 lbs; the weight of the trailer (800 lbs?), plus the 2200 lbs of gear.
So, the the trailer is carrying 50% over its stated capability and the Element is towing twice its rating.
When I first saw it, it struck me, that's all. Struck me as too much. I took it to heart to not do the same, if I ever tow my tractor. I simply took it as a learning experience and a lesson. That's all.
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rjkobbeman
Platinum Member
I think one of the points that scooter2d is trying to drill home though is that even thought the Element advertises a "towing capacity" of 1500 lbs, its GCWR is only 5000 lbs. This means that the real limit of towing -- after adding a driver and fuel -- is only 1000 lbs. (This is because the vehicle itself weighs 4000 lbs with driver and fuel.)
Now, with the trailer and contents being 3000 lbs, it is towing 200% over its rating of 1000 lbs.
Now, with the trailer and contents being 3000 lbs, it is towing 200% over its rating of 1000 lbs.
wvpolekat
Platinum Member
Let's look at it this way...
If we are say 500 lbs over a GCWR of 5000 lbs, that is 10% over. Add a 500 lbs fudge factor and we could be 20% over.
When dealing with low ratings like this, small amounts by weight are large amounts by proportion.
Then we get into axle ratings. I would put money that the rear axle would be overloaded. 10-15% of trailer weight is a good tongue weight. Let's assume that the BX, accessories and trailer weighs 1800 lbs. That would mean 180-200 lbs on the tongue, which is almost 50% of the payload capacity of 675 lbs. Which, once you figure in the leverage of it being at the end of the vehicle will be significantly more on the rear axle. I would guess this is an underestimate of the tongue weight considering the trailer and load. Add in stuff, passengers and such, and there is no way you can even come close to the mfg ratings.
The element is on the CR-V platform, which is a beefy Civic. I wouldn't trust the brakes on that to be able to handle a trailer that is 50% of the vehicle weight.
Basically, that is a rolling hazard.
If we are say 500 lbs over a GCWR of 5000 lbs, that is 10% over. Add a 500 lbs fudge factor and we could be 20% over.
When dealing with low ratings like this, small amounts by weight are large amounts by proportion.
Then we get into axle ratings. I would put money that the rear axle would be overloaded. 10-15% of trailer weight is a good tongue weight. Let's assume that the BX, accessories and trailer weighs 1800 lbs. That would mean 180-200 lbs on the tongue, which is almost 50% of the payload capacity of 675 lbs. Which, once you figure in the leverage of it being at the end of the vehicle will be significantly more on the rear axle. I would guess this is an underestimate of the tongue weight considering the trailer and load. Add in stuff, passengers and such, and there is no way you can even come close to the mfg ratings.
The element is on the CR-V platform, which is a beefy Civic. I wouldn't trust the brakes on that to be able to handle a trailer that is 50% of the vehicle weight.
Basically, that is a rolling hazard.
