Skidding winch - need bigger tractor?

[dstig1]

rbargeron - I'm using it on an L3130, my friend used it on a 9N 30 yrs ago.

I hadn't bothered to count the teeth previously, as it really isn't changeable, but just for giggles... I can't accurately count the sprocket teeth as I would have to totally disassemble the thing again to get to see it, and it is offsite now. What I can see from pics I took is that the small sprocket has 16 teeth and the big one looks like about 72 (I can see most of it in a picture and counting half of it I get about 36). So maybe only 4.5:1 - less than I thought. The book says 3130HST has 24 hp at the PTO, but doesn't list a torque for the PTO, only for the engine (75.9 ft-lbs). But even that is lower than what you are showing for the old 9N, so the 3130 must have only ~60% of the PTO torque of the 9N, at best. That explains a lot...

If I back it out: 24 hp = (torque x 2700 rpm)/5252, I get 47 ft lbs. [If I use the pto rpm (540) I get 233 ft lbs, so that can't be right.] 47 makes sense. 47/84 = 56% of the 9Ns rating. Again this makes sense as he said he would have easily been able to pull that oak with the old 9N (from memory).

Throttle was way up - about 2700 rpm or thereabouts. I mostly put it at full throttle, whatever the exact rpms are, I didn't check, but it was in that zone. I didn't really try lower throttle as that didn't seem logical to try, but I could try it.

The engine stayed running but the PTO shaft stopped moving, along with the winch drum and cable, naturally. ***Note it is a Hydro tranny on this tractor.

-Dave

 

[rus_geek]

The engine stayed running but the PTO shaft stopped moving, along with the winch drum and cable, naturally. ***Note it is a Hydro tranny on this tractor.

-Dave

You've established that the clutch on the winch is fine, but what about the clutch in the tractor? I'm not sure about the system on the L3130 you're using, but do you use a clutch pedal to engage the PTO or just the lever? If the PTO is gear-driven, the clutch is slipping. If the PTO is hydraulically driven, you may be hitting the relief valve. Any chance you have a spring scale big enough to see how much tension you are able to put on the cable before it stalls the PTO shaft?

-rus-

 

[LD1]

I am a little confused as well. If the actual PTO shaft running from tractor to winch is completely stopping, then it should stall the tractor engine cold. If the PTO is engaged, engine running, and pro shaft not turning, you've got something wrong with your tractor/clutch.

Your analysis of the PTO torque where you came up with ~233 IS correct. When you gear things up or down the thrque changes (-15-20% drivetrain losses) But however the HP remains the same no matter the RPM.

Torque is defined as how much work can be done.

HP is how fast it can do said work.

Gear something down, it can do more work but slower.

Gear it up, it can do less work but faster.

An example, if you can only carry 2 cement blocks at a time, but you can carry them twice as fast as the guy that can carry 4 at a time, you have the same HP but he has twice the torque.

 

[dstig1]

You've established that the clutch on the winch is fine, but what about the clutch in the tractor? I'm not sure about the system on the L3130 you're using, but do you use a clutch pedal to engage the PTO or just the lever? If the PTO is gear-driven, the clutch is slipping. If the PTO is hydraulically driven, you may be hitting the relief valve. Any chance you have a spring scale big enough to see how much tension you are able to put on the cable before it stalls the PTO shaft?

-rus-

I looked up the parts diagram and there is a clutch on the PTO in the HST. There is no pedal for it, just a lever. The only clutch pedal is the master. The manual says to move the PTO lever slowly to engage it with engine at low RPM, which is how I did it. Then boost rpm as needed.

LOL! I have no spring scale that can take a couple tons, that's for sure!

I am a little confused as well. If the actual PTO shaft running from tractor to winch is completely stopping, then it should stall the tractor engine cold. If the PTO is engaged, engine running, and pro shaft not turning, you've got something wrong with your tractor/clutch.

Perhaps the clutch needs adjusting? Or it was just too overloaded and was slipping? There is no info in the manual on adjusting the PTO clutch, and from the parts diagram, it appears to be deep inside the guts of the drive housings. And it sure doesn't look adjustable...

With regards to there being something wrong with the tractor, it worked fine until we tried to pull the big oak (when it stalled the PTO shaft), so we cut the tree down into a couple sections, and it pulled them out fine then. The only thing I could guess might be wrong would be the clutch is weak, but then again maybe it is doing what it is supposed to and slipping rather than stalling the engine?? (Yes, I'm new to tractors...)

-Dave

 

[LD1]

Unless things have changed, it should stall the engine before slipping. The Main clutch should be that way too. If not, when you use low gear down a hill, you can have a run away tractor real quick. (But not an issue with the PTO clutch).

You say it worked fin until trying to pull the winch, What other PTO things have you ran? Anything that works ist hard like a tiller? or just mowers and such?

And on a final note, if I am mistaking, and it is indeed supposed to slip inside the tractor, Id seriously be considering putting me a shear pin or slip clutch on the winch itself. If/when the one inside does wear out, I'd imagine its a PITA to replace and quite$$$.

 

[dstig1]

I haven't used the PTO until now. All loader & forks so far, until the winch. I don't have anything else that uses a PTo yet, either.

I can manage the clutch on the winch manually - no extra clutch or pin needed. I pretty much got the hang of watching the drum most of the time, with a few glances to see how the log was coming in. It only engages when you pull on the rope, and there is a good return spring (and gravity) that releases the clutch fast when you let go. So it appears for now, I will just watch out for it and slip the winch clutch as required.

Thanks for all the help.

Dave

 

[easygo]

I'm with LD1 on this one. I don't think that the clutch inside the tractor supposed to slip at all. According to the sepcs the L3130 has an independent PTO and there might be something with that. From my very limited knowledge it engages or disengages the PTO with a separate mechanism from the clutch.
may be there is a safety thingy in that. This could be a real good question for a Kubota mechanic.

PS: My neighbor has the same kind of winch. Works great.

 

[dstig1]

What does he run it on? This one works fine too, AFAIK, at least up to the point where the PTO stalls...

There is a separate clutch and clutch pack for the PTO. It is engaged with the PTO lever. That is probably what they mean by "independent PTO."

-Dave

 

[Dead Horse]

I believe there is something wrong with your tractor........

The PTO clutch should NOT slip when fully engaged.

I run my tractor at 1500 rpm (that is where it makes peak torque) with a Farmi 601 rigged up. I have yet to stall the tractor, even with a hang up.

The farmi chain drive has enough give in it that under extremem conditions the cog can be made to jump the chain. That is what bent yours in the first place, most likely. It is a design flaw that does not usually manifest itself because the clutch slipping should indicate you have a hang up, or too big a load. You really reef down on the clutch lanyard and something will give. IF the winch is matched properly to the tractor, the tractor should stall.

You should baby your tractor PTO it until you can get it looked at. Slipping the PTO clutch under load will wear it out rather fast.

Late thought......... does your PTO shaft have a clutch on either end of it? Some do.

 

[dstig1]

The only clutch I see is the PTO clutch #020 in the first pic. You can see the PTO output shaft #130 in the second pic:

I wonder if the OP abused the PTO somehow? I am the 3rd owner of it. Ironically the 2nd owner is the regional rep for Kubota who was a real nice guy and a straight shooter. But he only had it for a year or 2. I don't know how much PTO time he did. He used it to do major re-landscaping of his house, and after that it was too big for him to keep around. All of which made sense to me. He said the first owner was a farmer in the area.

-Dave