15% ethanol!?!?

[FlaDon]

People here are not complaining of problems in their trucks or cars, its the small engines 2 and 4 strokes that are troublesome. For some reason it does not seem to affect the larger stuff, probably the fact that we run more fuel through them. Like you said you drive 80 mile round trip a day in your escort you prolly get fuel every 4 days. Like my saturn i drive a 50 mile round trip and go 5 days on a tank of fuel before i fill up. My ford ranger 1990 yr will go 6-7 days driving the same amount and my chevy will drain one of the saddle bombs in 3 days (16 gallons) making the same treck, needless to say i have never done 3 back to back trips in the K10.

In a vehicle, a tankfull may last in the tank for part of a day to weeks. I can empty a 35 gallon tank in under one day. During that time it is in a system designed to prevent vapors from going anywhere. Lawn mowers, saws, etc are not sealed units and every day the temp changes cause a vapor exchange. Parts of the gasoline evaporates and moisture in the air drops out. Water and ethanol can only be in a certain ratio before the alcohol starts dropping out of the gasoline. That is when bad things start to happen.

 

[dcyrilc]

In a vehicle, a tankfull may last in the tank for part of a day to weeks. I can empty a 35 gallon tank in under one day. During that time it is in a system designed to prevent vapors from going anywhere. Lawn mowers, saws, etc are not sealed units and every day the temp changes cause a vapor exchange. Parts of the gasoline evaporates and moisture in the air drops out. Water and ethanol can only be in a certain ratio before the alcohol starts dropping out of the gasoline. That is when bad things start to happen.

I mixed up 5 gallons of fuel for the saws and hedge trimmer two summers ago. Currently have about an inch left in the can. No stabil and no draining the tanks for winter. No problems yet. Been doing it this way for years.

 

[welder1]

The problem is the percentage of ethanol in the fuel. On the pump it says a max of 10%. Our local Mercury Marine master tech was commisioned by the parent company to do ethanol tests in the Greenville, SC area. One station's fuel was 24%!! Ethanol is wreaking havoc on 2-cycle outboards of all sizes. My very good friend's 225 EFI Merc had a gallon zip-loc bag full of a very hard substance that the above mentioned tech chipped and drilled out of the exhaust ports that go through the middle of the outboard. The motor was so stopped up it wouldn't run and it hasn't been lugged around, it has been run like he stole it. Most of these problems have popped up in the last couple of years as greed has caused the fuel companies to make gas cheaper than ever. On all my 2-cycle and lawn mower engines, I use stabil and seafoam. On my boat engine I use Mercury Quickleen, stabil marine and seafoam. It costs more to operate but it beats dropping $500 to get your motor roto-rooted.

 

[Ford850]

I mixed up 5 gallons of fuel for the saws and hedge trimmer two summers ago. Currently have about an inch left in the can. No stabil and no draining the tanks for winter. No problems yet. Been doing it this way for years.

Some oil mix has stabilizer included in the oil. For example Stihl oil does, so it will last much longer. One problem people have is caused by mixing stale fuel. They have a can of gas a month old, and then they mix up a gallon using that. Too little too late. Add the oil mix (or stabil) the day you pump it and it will last much longer.

 

[brokenot]

The problem is that because of this trait the ethonol attracts water, what does a half full tank do, gets cool at night and then condenses in the hot day water is absorbed by ethonol and cause of the heavy water weight sinks to the bottom of the tank where it waits to be burned

I hear stuff like this all the time from owners that seem to be *susceptible* to having fuel problems with their vehicle and/or equipment.

Here's the thing though: If ethanol was totally responsible for the issue(s) the individual was having, then why aren't those same issues being experienced by everyone that's using the same fuel?

There's nothing in my fuel tanks that is getting rid of the moisture that my 10% ethanol is "attracting" overnight. So if I'm doing nothing to get rid of the alleged "attracted moisture" in my half-full tanks, but someone else is having issues with "attracted moisture", it certainly makes one wonder why their ethanol blend is attracting all of this moisture.

Most, (not all, but most), fuel system issues with equipment, (especially small equipment), are owner-induced. It's a fact and there's no getting around it. Fuel formulations have changed, and with those changes have come updated and revised instructions from engine and equipment manufacturers. Those revised instructions won't prevent all issues from occurring, but sticking to the manufacturer's recommendations about storage and cleanliness in particular would eliminate most of the problems owners have.

You can do simple experiments if you want. Get a really accurate scale and weigh a given volume of fuel. Then set it somewhere and expose it to the same conditions your troublesome power equipment is having. Let it sit for a few days or weeks and then weigh it again. See how much water the fuel container has "attracted" out of thin air via the vented cap. Alternatively, take a container of straight ethanol and expose it to those same conditions and see how much water it accumulates out of thin air. Does it happen? Yes. Does it account for more than a minute percentage of the fuel issues people are having? Nope.

Here's a tidbit from a boat site. Pay attention to the language used and you'll see where a lot of the confusion comes from:

One of the unfortunate properties of ethanol is its ability to attract and absorb water. Ethanol-enhanced gasoline can absorb roughly 10 times as much water as MTBE, a fuel additive now largely phased out

Show that to most folks and ask them to tell you what they just read. It says that ethanol-enhanced gasoline can absorb roughly 10 times as much moisture as MTBE, but most people will read it and tell you that ethanol-enhanced gasoline will attract 10 times as much moisture.

Go ahead, show the quote to someone....and post up what they say they just read.

 

[clemsonfor]

It is all I use for small engines also. I do not use stabil or any other products to add in tank before letting anything sit for 6 months to a year. I will leave my snow blower topped in the tank and never have drained carb and still do not have problems every one has.
I do wonder if some areas are using other blends of alcohol other then that made of from corn? Minnesota many years ago did gasohol, it was not ph balanced like the corn ethanol is now, and from what I understood had alcohol from many sourses such as wood or what ever could be made from.
And to answer the part of some one saying we are using food that would feed people, sorry that is not true. Corn ethanol has the one third portion returned that farmers feed to cattle which is the only part that cattle can digest. I will not be running out to try a taste of field corn soon either.

Correct, when you go to iowa, mississippi, kansas and other huge farming states the corn you see planted for miles and miles does not end up in the grocery store produce isle. It is feed corn and is hard as a da@* rock. Any of those people who think there going to get some free corn and pilpher it off a poor farmer realize this when they get it home. That corn IS used to feed cattle and hogs, as well as grind up into corn meal and dry goods like cereal. So yes in a way it is a food product, weather in your cornflakes, or PART of that beef or pork you eat.

 

[clemsonfor]

There's nothing in my fuel tanks that is getting rid of the moisture that my 10% ethanol is "attracting" overnight. So if I'm doing nothing to get rid of the alleged "attracted moisture" in my half-full tanks, but someone else is having issues with "attracted moisture", it certainly makes one wonder why their ethanol blend is attracting all of this moisture.



Here's a tidbit from a boat site. Pay attention to the language used and you'll see where a lot of the confusion comes from:



Show that to most folks and ask them to tell you what they just read. It says that ethanol-enhanced gasoline can absorb roughly 10 times as much moisture as MTBE, but most people will read it and tell you that ethanol-enhanced gasoline will attract 10 times as much moisture.

Go ahead, show the quote to someone....and post up what they say they just read.

Exactly the ethonol is doing that for you. The last quote about absorbing 10x the water said it all. No im not saying just cause its ethonol it absorbs 10x the water the mtbe does, just that if water is made availible it can. So that being said any water that condensates in your tank in the day after cooling all night is just absorbed by the ethonol. It is then held in suspention in the fuel till it is burned in your motor. Over a few day, weeks and even months this is not a problem, when you go 6 months or longer of not burning this fuel through the motor is when the problems occur. You get closer to the 10z threshold, and there for have degraded fuel cause you have so much volume of water suspended in it, which in a 2 stroke creates a lean burn situation. If the mix actually ignights water does not combust, it will just exhaust as vapor, leaving you less fuel to combust thus leaning out a motor, burning pistons, etc. etc.

 

[dcyrilc]

Some oil mix has stabilizer included in the oil. For example Stihl oil does, so it will last much longer. One problem people have is caused by mixing stale fuel. They have a can of gas a month old, and then they mix up a gallon using that. Too little too late. Add the oil mix (or stabil) the day you pump it and it will last much longer.

That explains why I never had problems. I always use Stihl oil for mixing and I always put it in before I pump the gas so that the gas helps to mix it while you're pumping it. I also always shake the can before poaring the mixed gas into any of my equipment.

 

[brokenot]

Over a few day, weeks and even months this is not a problem, when you go 6 months or longer of not burning this fuel through the motor is when the problems occur.

That's my point. No small engine manufacturer is going to say it's okay to leave gasoline sitting around for 6 months. Almost all of the problems that occur with small engine fuel systems could be easily avoided if the recommendations were followed.

Ethanol blends, when stated as fine to use by the engine manufacturer, cause very few.....if any....issues.

Poor practices on the part of the end-user on the other hand, cause all sorts of problems. And when those problems crop up, it's easier and more convenient to put the blame elsewhere.

Go to any small engine/marine/motorcycle shop at the beginning of whatever season it is. About 90% of the work they'll be doing is to un-do mistakes made by the owner when it comes to storage. The type of fuel the owner was using has little or nothing to do with whatever their current problem is. Ethanol "attracting moisture" also has little, (or nothing), to do with whatever their current problem is.

Simply stated, if the manuals were read and adhered to, all of those dump-the-old-gas-and-clean-the-carb work orders would be history.

 

[clemsonfor]

That explains why I never had problems. I always use Stihl oil for mixing and I always put it in before I pump the gas so that the gas helps to mix it while you're pumping it. I also always shake the can before poaring the mixed gas into any of my equipment.

i bought the walmart brand outboard oil and it said it had a stabilizer in it i think. I use husky oil in my stihl , that i get at lowes and i seem to not ahve the issues. I did have a cracked fuel line that i replaced but what i read on my saw forum my model is tough on fuel lines, it only lasted 6 years or so. I rebuilt the carb hoping that was the problem and it looked normal in there.