15% ethanol!?!?

dickfoster · Jun 30, 2016

ultrarunner said:
Zero on ethanol free gas availability for road use here...

It has played havoc already with every antique auto that has a fuel tank sealer with some being 100% problem free going back the to 70's...

Absolutely criminal the EPA does not mandate ethanol free also be available at the pump...

It has already cost me many thousands of dollars in fuel system damage.

I would gladly pay a premium to be free of it... but $30 to $40 a gallon is the cost of True Fuel and paying $400 to fill the tank of my antique is ludicrous...

Just about all older gas equipment is vented... which is another problem... took the 1938 Bantam to to a charity 4H car show and it would not fire... always runs like a top... drained the fuel, let it settle and found a clear demarcation of water and fuel...

I've been in the auto side of thing 40+ years and NEVER had fuel related problems prior...

I don't know why they cling to this ethanol debacle. I don't think it does anything or anyone any good and it's also shameful waste of what could have been good moonshine. I think it's basically just a way to use up an unwanted surplus of subsidized corn.

2458n · Jun 30, 2016

Bought gas for 2.07 in Dayton Ohio today. Would pay extra for the "E" free stuff. Fracking has brought the price back down. USA looks bad for backing out of the Keystone Pipeline. Canada has a right to be pissed. Cost of Ethanol raised the price of corn,along with the price of food. Let the market decide.

k0ua · Jun 30, 2016

ultrarunner said:
Zero on ethanol free gas availability for road use here...

It has played havoc already with every antique auto that has a fuel tank sealer with some being 100% problem free going back the to 70's...

Absolutely criminal the EPA does not mandate ethanol free also be available at the pump...

It has already cost me many thousands of dollars in fuel system damage.

I would gladly pay a premium to be free of it... but $30 to $40 a gallon is the cost of True Fuel and paying $400 to fill the tank of my antique is ludicrous...

Just about all older gas equipment is vented... which is another problem... took the 1938 Bantam to to a charity 4H car show and it would not fire... always runs like a top... drained the fuel, let it settle and found a clear demarcation of water and fuel...

I've been in the auto side of thing 40+ years and NEVER had fuel related problems prior...

What would you pay for us to run a load of alcohol free fuel out to you? The stuff is available everywhere here. Heck it is almost as available as "assault weapons and high capacity magazines" around here.

Yah want me to bring some of those out too?:laughing:

ultrarunner · Jun 30, 2016

In Olympia there is no problem buying ethanol free... I see the landscape guys lined up to buy it.

The SF Bay Area is just different and those in charge are proud of it.

There is a racing fuel dealer that will sell me 55 gallon drums of high test ethanol free... there are no pumps... only sold in drums.

I have an old original 1950 Plymouth that ran well... the ethanol loosened up everything in the tank and the rubber fuel lines let go and then the fuel pump...

Keep hearing how ethanol is cheaper... my question is cheaper for who?

dickfoster · Jun 30, 2016

ultrarunner said:
In Olympia there is no problem buying ethanol free... I see the landscape guys lined up to buy it.

The SF Bay Area is just different and those in charge are proud of it.

There is a racing fuel dealer that will sell me 55 gallon drums of high test ethanol free... there are no pumps... only sold in drums.

I have an old original 1950 Plymouth that ran well... the ethanol loosened up everything in the tank and the rubber fuel lines let go and then the fuel pump...

Keep hearing how ethanol is cheaper... my question is cheaper for who?

It simply can't be cheaper if you're not cookin the books. It takes as much oil to grow and harvest the crops that ethanol comes from as the ethanol produced. Then you have to distill, process, and distribute it on top of that. Ethanol is a zero sum game and nothing but yet another gubberment inspired scam.

the old grind · Jun 30, 2016

dickfoster said:
It simply can't be cheaper if you're not cookin the books. It takes as much oil to grow and harvest the crops that ethanol comes from as the ethanol produced. Then you have to distill, process, and distribute it on top of that. Ethanol is a zero sum game and nothing but yet another gubberment inspired scam.

Another example of gov't cowtowing to idealists and other 'dogooders' who think 4 yrs of college teaches them more than decades of experience in the real world. Can you say 'datta' or 'processeese'? Yeah, you're an expert.

btw, once harvested, it takes very little oil or petro-chemical products to produce corn into alcohol fuel. Just commit 40% of output to processing the rest of the batch.

Meanwhile, thousands of acres of CRP land have been 'converted' to produce subsidized corn. Who's winning that one? Not our wildlife ...

dickfoster · Jun 30, 2016

the old grind said:
Another example of gov't cowtowing to idealists and other 'dogooders' who think 4 yrs of college teaches them more than decades of experience in the real world. Can you say 'datta' or 'processeese'? Yeah, you're an expert.

btw, once harvested, it takes very little oil or petro-chemical products to produce corn into alcohol fuel. Just commit 40% of output to processing the rest of the batch.

Meanwhile, thousands of acres of CRP land have been 'converted' to produce subsidized corn. Who's winning that one? Not our wildlife ...

Not just four years of college but typically four years culminating in a worthless liberal arts degree. I think they would gain more world knowledge and broadening as they say by spending that time in the army than sitting on their backsides listening to what some leftist, self appointed expert, can't keep a real job, hiding out from life in academia has to say.

ultrarunner · Jun 30, 2016

Indoctrination starts early...

I was at the 5th grade commencement for my niece... in her classroom she had a piece of artwork posted and I saw the teacher was clearing the walls...

I asked teacher I could have it if she was just going to toss it.

She spun around so fast and looked me right in the eye and informed me this classroom tosses nothing... I looked confused and then she said her students are taught to be Green Aware and the artwork she was taking down would be recycled...

I replied great... so you are tossing it and I'm going to take it home and not recycle but frame it...

Copperhead · Jul 1, 2016

Whether ethanol free is available in your area is more a state issue and retailer issue than the EPA. And it is not a control of the corn lobby as some suspect. In Iowa, corn central and with 46 ethanol plants, we have ethanol free readily available all around us, even though the state promotes ethanol use as hard as anyone else to satisfy their ag constituents. But on the flip side, they don't limit our choices at the pump. Some retailers may not have it, as they have limited storage tanks, so they just have regular and premium in ethanol varieties. That is a retailer issue not an EPA one.

Copperhead · Jul 1, 2016

dickfoster said:
It simply can't be cheaper if you're not cookin the books. It takes as much oil to grow and harvest the crops that ethanol comes from as the ethanol produced. Then you have to distill, process, and distribute it on top of that. Ethanol is a zero sum game and nothing but yet another gubberment inspired scam.

It is market pricing pure and simple. What it takes to grow corn and make the stuff is irrelevant. Ethanol is traded on commodity exchanges just like gasoline. Farmers and ethanol producers have nothing to say about it. Same for gasoline and diesel. Right now.... ethanol is trading at roughly $1.60 on the market, and gas is trading at $1.50. Main reason ethanol is higher now is because of seasonal demand. State taxes on fuels plays a significant part in final pricing at the pump more than the commodity price of the fuel itself. Biofuels are taxed lower than petro fuels, so it is indeed realistic to see lower prices for ethanol blends at pumps than ethanol free gas. And it is supply and demand. Fewer ethanol free pumps and the pricing is higher for it because of availability.

No... there actually is a net gain on energy from ethanol as fuel it takes to produce. For every 1 BTU of energy to produce ethanol, there is a 34% gain in BTU gain at the other end. Ethanol production has a 1.34 return on every 1 BTU of energy to produce. And on the water front, it takes almost as much water to produce a gallon of petro fuel as it does to make a gallon of ethanol.

It helps to discuss facts instead of feelings or agendas. I am totally neutral. I can use ethanol or not. I am totally value oriented. That is why I like having flex fuel vehicles. I can pick and choose to my hearts content on what gives me the best value for my dollar down the road depending on prevailing prices between products and the fuel economy I get from each one. Cost per mile is my primary motivation. What goes on behind the scenes, I don't waste a lot of time on. And I sure don't fall for all the internet hype that goes on about such things put out by dweebs in cubicles that couldn't tell you the difference between sweet corn and #2 yellow dent field corn.

Energy comparison... Not a zero sum gain...

http://www1.eere.energy.gov/bioenergy/pdfs/energy_balance_of_corn_ethanol.pdf

water use comparison...

Water Use for Ethanol Production - Ethanol - University of Illinois Extension

Ford850 · Jul 1, 2016

Part of the issue here is our legacy fuel system. Our gas stations are set up like they were in the 50's. Gas is no longer just gas. There are multiple variations and combinations of fuel and additives that could be available. But a retailer can only afford one set of pumps in most cases, producing the standard 3 options that are in most demand (reg, mid, high octane), and occasionally an odd pump for diesel. If they must sell Ethanol blends, then Ethanol is the only option since they can't afford the price or the space for a full second set of pumps and tanks for non-ethanol. I would love to see a new pump and tank system that mixed at the pump, including Ethanol. That would let everyone have easy access to more flavors of fuel and additives as they chose. turn the dial to your preferred blend, and pump away!

ultrarunner · Jul 1, 2016

If the EPA has the ability to mandate a ethanol blend they can surely mandate a non-ethanol blend... pure and simple but for some reason they don't causing untold financial and safety hardships for millions...

vsteel · Jul 1, 2016

My only issue is that corn really isn't the best to use for ethanol production. If you want to talk efficiency we would be a lot better off with switch grass. Corn was chosen because the infrastructure was already there.

Copperhead · Jul 2, 2016

that is somewhat true. But there are a lot of other products that come from the production of ethanol from corn. It is the most efficient way to get those products. The common misperception is that when a kernel of corn is dedicated to ethanol production, that is all that comes out the other end. Ethanol is just one of many products that come out of ethanol plants. Major biofuels setups like the Blair biofuels complex in Blair, NE that I deal with on a regular basis produces a wide array of products from the corn that goes in there. Plastics, high protein feed supplements, corn oil, and other products also come out of ethanol production.

The same cannot be said of switch grass and such. Ford850 nailed the problem pretty good. It is impractical for many retailers to have arrays of tanks for storing every fuel that is available, so they have to limit what they have. There has been a push lately to have more retailers install blender pumps in many locations to offer what was mentioned... consumer could select the fuel they want and that pump dispenses it. From ethanol free right on up thru E85.

Copperhead · Jul 21, 2016

Came across this. I have stated several times that it is the states that primarily determine if one can get ethanol free. Some have essentially told me I was full of it. Well, here is a current map of the fuel requirements across the nation. That vast majority is in white, which means ethanol free can be sold with no restriction.

ultrarunner · Jul 21, 2016

And that is my issues living in the SF Bay Area...

Saw plenty of stations in the Washington advertising ethanol free... don't know of a single one in the SF Bay Area.