15% ethanol!?!?

[clemsonfor]

That's my point. No small engine manufacturer is going to say it's okay to leave gasoline sitting around for 6 months. Almost all of the problems that occur with small engine fuel systems could be easily avoided if the recommendations were followed.

Ethanol blends, when stated as fine to use by the engine manufacturer, cause very few.....if any....issues.

Poor practices on the part of the end-user on the other hand, cause all sorts of problems. And when those problems crop up, it's easier and more convenient to put the blame elsewhere.

Go to any small engine/marine/motorcycle shop at the beginning of whatever season it is. About 90% of the work they'll be doing is to un-do mistakes made by the owner when it comes to storage. The type of fuel the owner was using has little or nothing to do with whatever their current problem is. Ethanol "attracting moisture" also has little, (or nothing), to do with whatever their current problem is.

Simply stated, if the manuals were read and adhered to, all of those dump-the-old-gas-and-clean-the-carb work orders would be history.

Your correct if we followed the manufacturer recomemdation i think they all say for more than 4 weeks or so tank should be drained.

You still will have people that have that 2 gallons of gas that they bought 8 months ago with no stabil or seafoam in it that they will put into that drained saw or mower to run it and will still get the problems. Again were back to directions, i think they all state "fresh clean fuel" be used.

 

[Travelover]

OK, I'll admit this comment is off on a tangent, but it ties in.

The new Chevy Volt has a battery with a 40 mile range and a small engine that fires up if you need to exceed the 40 miles. If someone bought one and only commuted to work 10 miles for years on end, the engine would never run. In the meantime it seems like that gas would get pretty rank. Has anyone heard how they plan to get around this issue?

 

[DEWFPO]

OK, I'll admit this comment is off on a tangent, but it ties in.

The new Chevy Volt has a battery with a 40 mile range and a small engine that fires up if you need to exceed the 40 miles. If someone bought one and only commuted to work 10 miles for years on end, the engine would never run. In the meantime it seems like that gas would get pretty rank. Has anyone heard how they plan to get around this issue?

Despite what some folks think, gasoline lasts a very long time. Two days ago I used some PUL that was 3.5 years old and put it into a nearly empty tank and drove 57 miles on it without so much as a hiccup.

DEWFPO

 

[gauthier]

I believe corn is food too,also,corn takes alot of nitrogen when it grows also,meaning you got to really fertilize it, takes a good bit of water too,takes a lot of desil fuel too,and thats just the growing part,,,,ethinal as fuel if the government wasn't helping pay for it with our tax money it would cost way more than it does[they wouldn't be making it]now if we run out of oil,than you ain't got much choice,and a gal of fuel would cost maybe 50 bucks or more,again you ain't got no choice[if we ran out of oil],but we ain't ran out of oil yet and won't probably in next 100 years or more. They forced it on us too soon,time we run out of oil,ethinal will be history as well anyways,,just a way,for some companies to get rich off us tax payers,thats all ethinal is at the present[and a pain]...

Field corn is used to make many human food products as well as to feed to animals[which we than eat],we have been eating it for probably thousands of years,,now sugar cane seems like a much better thing to use to make alchol with than corn,why aren't we using that,or beets? politics,thats why.

 

[Duffster]

I believe corn is food too,also,corn takes alot of nitrogen when it grows also,meaning you got to really fertilize it, takes a good bit of water too,takes a lot of desil fuel too,and thats just the growing part,,,,ethinal as fuel if the government wasn't helping pay for it with our tax money it would cost way more than it does[they wouldn't be making it]now if we run out of oil,than you ain't got much choice,and a gal of fuel would cost maybe 50 bucks or more,again you ain't got no choice[if we ran out of oil],but we ain't ran out of oil yet and won't probably in next 100 years or more. They forced it on us too soon,time we run out of oil,ethinal will be history as well anyways,,just a way,for some companies to get rich off us tax payers,thats all ethinal is at the present[and a pain]...

So.....how much is the "government helping pay for it with our tax money"?

Any idea how much the petro companies are "helped"?

Field corn is used to make many human food products as well as to feed to animals[which we than eat],we have been eating it for probably thousands of years,,now sugar cane seems like a much better thing to use to make alchol with than corn,why aren't we using that,or beets? politics,thats why.

Infrastructure.

If you figure that amount of feed left when done making corn ethanol, is sugar really any better?

 

[Iowachild]

OK, I'll admit this comment is off on a tangent, but it ties in.

The new Chevy Volt has a battery with a 40 mile range and a small engine that fires up if you need to exceed the 40 miles. If someone bought one and only commuted to work 10 miles for years on end, the engine would never run. In the meantime it seems like that gas would get pretty rank. Has anyone heard how they plan to get around this issue?

Has anyone in cold climate regions given any thought to heaters in electric cars? Adding enough electric heating elements to defrost windows and keep the interior warm in sub-zero weather will do wonders for battery life! Just wondering!:2cents:

 

[brokenot]

Despite what some folks think, gasoline lasts a very long time. Two days ago I used some PUL that was 3.5 years old and put it into a nearly empty tank and drove 57 miles on it without so much as a hiccup.

Leave some gas that old in the tank of a small engine, (especially one that gets fed its fuel via gravity), and post back your results.

Or, go to a local small engine/marine/motorcycle shop and ask them what the majority of their workload is at the beginning of the season. There's nothing magical or mysterious going on when folks' stuff won't start or run after sitting for a few weeks or months. Nothing with the engine itself has *changed* since the last time it was operated and ran fine. The techs are simply draining old stale gas, (out of everywhere....lines, carburetor bowls, etc. Not just the tank.), and replacing it with fresh gas. If it sat long enough with bad gas that has congealed and transformed into gunk, then draining it often isn't enough. Jets need to be unclogged and such.

Following the manufacturer's recommendations for storage would eliminate the hassles, but then again....why do that? It's easier to let the fuel go stale and then load the equipment up and haul it in for a $50 and up "spring tune-up".

 

[zmoz]

Well with having the 15% ethanol here in Oregon for over a year and a half, we are now coming into many of the small engines having a full season of use, storage and attemped use again.

Oregon does NOT serve 15% ethanol. Unless you find a weird station somewhere, they are all 10% just like everywhere else. (the percentage of ethanol must be posted at the pump, and I've never seen one higher than 10%, and that's all the law requires) In Oregon we are required to have it year 'round, as compared to other states or in the past when we only had it in the summer. Not that there are many mom and pop stations left, but this is a reason to choose a big name versus the cheaper stuff.

The biggest problems with ethanol fuel are A) the gas station selling you an incorrect (higher than 10%) mix, and B) it just goes bad faster. If you get fresh E10 fuel and burn it right away it should run fine in most any engine.

That said, I'm currently talking with a local oil company about delivering non alcoholic gas for "off road" use at my shop, more for economy reasons than because I think it's hurting my engines...

 

[zmoz]

I wonder, if even possible, if anyone is going to make a "ethanol filter" to remove stuff from the fuel?

It's called "water washing". All you have to do is add water to your gas until the ethanol can no longer absorb anymore. At this point it should sink to the bottom and you can siphon off the "pure" gasoline.

Problem with that is that it can also remove some of the other additives in gas, and, you're throwing away 10% of what you bought. Gas already cost too much!

If you're careful the alcohol/water mix is still flammable once you siphon it off, you could make a heater...or maybe some moonshine.

 

[clemsonfor]

Oregon does NOT Not that there are many mom and pop stations left, but this is a reason to choose a big name versus the cheaper stuff.
..

Around here the smaller stations, the privitly (non chain) owned ones are the ones that still sell pure 100% gas. These are the places i go when i want REAL fuel. Yea they may be .10-.20 cents higher a gallon but you get 10% more gas per gallon too.

 

[zmoz]

Around here the smaller stations, the privitly (non chain) owned ones are the ones that still sell pure 100% gas. These are the places i go when i want REAL fuel. Yea they may be .10-.20 cents higher a gallon but you get 10% more gas per gallon too.

In most states it's a law, doesn't matter whether you are mom and pop or not, if you use alcohol or not. In oregon it's illegal for anybody to sell road fuel without alcohol.

 

[ModMech]

There is FAR more DIS-information than information regarding "reformulated" (oxygenated etc) fuels than is good for the discussion. BOTH sides are using slight of hand tactics to put their spin in the best possible light, niether are being wholly honest or forthcomming about the facts.

FACT: If we used 100% of the Ag land in the USA we couldn't grow enough corn to produce an amount of ethanol covering even 50% of our (gasoline) energy demand. Plus, we would all starve.

FACT: EVERY single engine manufacturer from B&S to Volvo states that (ethanol) "blended" fuel *can* be used up to 10% by volume. That has been the case for years, but not 25 years. Up until 1988, most engine manufacturers were publishing a 5% guideline, in 1998 that mostly changed to 10%.

FACT: Carburated engines run hotter and leaner on ethanol blended fuel than on neat gasoline. The AFR for ethanol is RICHER than that for gasoline, period. Unless you make modifications to the jetting, if you run blended gas, you are lean. Lean AFR = HOT AFR.

FACT: Blended (ethanol) fuels have a reduced shelf-life. Typically, 2-3 weeks and shorter in hot or humid climates (gulf and deserst SW). This is because ethanol will absorb moisture from the atmosphere and because it has a higher vapor pressure. Storing in a SEALED container will tend to increase shelf-life.

FACT: You should not store SGEs with gas in the tank. Duh, that has never been different, or more true. As others have correctly pointed out, they are VENTED and that's bad for shelf-life.

FACT: Most modern EFI engines can be operated on E15 w/o a serious risk. The EFI system adjusts within limits to minimize risk the engine.

FACT: Not all engines use the same fuel system parts. Some hose suppliers may have product that will work with E15, while others may have troubles at E5. Same for carb jets and injector parts.

FACT: Gasoline degrades hoses. But, ethanol blends do it faster.

FACT: Ethanol can reduce our dependance on foreign oil. So can outlawing drive-thru windows.

FACT: Ethanol is a great motor fuel, but it has limitations like any other.

FACT: Neat ethanol has a much lower energy density (BTU/# or BTU/gal) than gasoline.

FACT: E85 has almost exactly 2/3 (66%) the energy content of the equivelant grade of neat gasoline.

FACT: Ethanol is an inexpensive octane booster. Lead and MTBE are cheaper, and outlawed.

FACT: You CAN sell blended (reformulated) gasoline with an ethanol content above 10% even if the pump is marked "up to 10%" IF it is sold in a "non-attainment" region (like Minneapolis, DFW or Denver).

 

[gauthier]

10-4,thats the way I see it too.

 

[zmoz]

FACT: Gasoline degrades hoses. But, ethanol blends do it faster.

This is a good point. Some people seem to think that if they were running 100% gas instead of 90% gas, their equipment will last forever and they don't have to do any maintainence. As soon as anything happens, it's the evil ethanol's fault.

Truth is, carburetors had to be rebuilt every now and then even when they were still selling leaded gas. And sometimes you got a tank of bad gas...or water in your tank. And sometimes hoses blew up just 'cause. Now just about every time that happens it's blamed on ethanol, whether that was actually the cause or not.

Look at race cars that only run on "race" fuel. They have fuel issues all the time too...

 

[David_Kb7uns]

Oregon does NOT serve 15% ethanol. Unless you find a weird station somewhere, they are all 10% just like everywhere else. (the percentage of ethanol must be posted at the pump, and I've never seen one higher than 10%, and that's all the law requires) In Oregon we are required to have it year 'round, as compared to other states or in the past when we only had it in the summer. Not that there are many mom and pop stations left, but this is a reason to choose a big name versus the cheaper stuff.

The biggest problems with ethanol fuel are A) the gas station selling you an incorrect (higher than 10%) mix, and B) it just goes bad faster. If you get fresh E10 fuel and burn it right away it should run fine in most any engine.

That said, I'm currently talking with a local oil company about delivering non alcoholic gas for "off road" use at my shop, more for economy reasons than because I think it's hurting my engines...

Went back and reread article and it was talking about the 15% coming, not here yet so you are correct. Their is also an exemption now that premium fuel in Oregon does not have to contain alcohol. So stations here that have three tanks and no blenders for mid grade can get straight gas again. Filled up with some last month in Tangent at Wilco.

David Kb7uns

 

[zmoz]

I wouldn't be surprised if Oregon is one of the first places to start an E15 requirement...*sigh*

But heck, my boat still calls for 90 octane "leaded regular" (LOL!) and she runs fine on (fresh) E10. I did have to rebuild the carbs last year but I blame that on old age more than ethanol.

I'm one of those types that doesn't bother to maintain the lawnmower, it sits outside in the rain all winter full of gas and oil. Every spring I drain and refill the fluids, and it fires right up. After about 5 years of this it could use some work, by that time I just pop a new engine on it for around $100.

 

[brokenot]

BOTH sides are using slight of hand tactics to put their spin in the best possible light, niether are being wholly honest or forthcomming about the facts.

Please explain.

 

[ccsial]

Unless I am using my Stihls every day during wood cutting seasons, I drain the tank back to my storage jug and run the engine dry ever time I use them. Been doing this for years and never had a gas problem. It takes about 2 minutes.

 

[clemsonfor]

In most states it's a law, doesn't matter whether you are mom and pop or not, if you use alcohol or not. In oregon it's illegal for anybody to sell road fuel without alcohol.

Im not saying its not a law in your state just stating in mine. I thought it was law here to but apparently not cause both in GA and SC around my house you can still find stations that sell pure gas, they generally are the smaller ones that do it to sell to the people that want pur fuel as well as i live and work around Lake J. strom Thurmond, the biggest lake east of the mississippi, so there is quite a bit of boat traffic on it and to it, this draws boaters into these pure fuel stations.

 

[SkyPup]

Congressional Budget Office states that cutting carbon emissions by one metric ton via ethanol runs to $754.

To put that number in perspective, the budget gnomes estimate that the price for a ton of carbon under the cap-and-tax program that the House passed last summer would be about $26 in 2019.

CBO is also honest enough to mention that in reality $754 may be purchasing a net carbon emissions increase.

"Because the production of ethanol draws so much energy from coal and natural gas it can be thought of as a method for converting natural gas or coal to a liquid fuel that can be used for transportation." Meanwhile, the assumptions of their model also exclude indirect land-use changes toward energy-intensive crops that also boost overall CO2.

Given these realities, the only mystery is how the Ethanol Industry has managed to produce a wasteful biofuel that no one would willingly buy but has managed to be subsidized over four decades at costs that are higher than anyone ever imagined, since it could never make a profit.