First oil change BEFORE recommended time interval

[Redbug]

I've wondered about "break in oil" and whether it is used anymore. That answers it!

 

[RoyJackson]

The vast majority of engine builders today no longer use anything remotely similar to break-in oil. GM, Ford, Chrysler, etc in the their cars and trucks do not and have not for decades. Standard 5w-30 or whatever, nothing special.

Shoot, you have a large and increasing number of vehicles, "foreign" and "domestic" that come with full synthetic in them from the factory. Wow! how do they "break-in"? The tolerances and metallurgy is so changed, that there isn't much to break-in anymore, not as we understood it in the past.

Times and technologies change.

I agree with you...when it comes to the automotive industry. However, that's not the tractor industry.
I'm sure most are aware Yanmar makes quite a few of the Deere CUT engines. These engines are not used in just tractors. Some are industrial, some marine usage. I don't expect that technology to be up to the highly regulated (in this case, fuel economy standards) automotive industries.

However, it's probably best to follow the manual. If the first oil change is called out at 50 hours, that's when you change it. If it calls out for 200 hours....then that's when you change it. At least the owner would be covered if there's a warranty problem.

 

[bp fick]

I agree with you...when it comes to the automotive industry. However, that's not the tractor industry.
I'm sure most are aware Yanmar makes quite a few of the Deere CUT engines. These engines are not used in just tractors. Some are industrial, some marine usage. I don't expect that technology to be up to the highly regulated (in this case, fuel economy standards) automotive industries.

However, it's probably best to follow the manual. If the first oil change is called out at 50 hours, that's when you change it. If it calls out for 200 hours....then that's when you change it. At least the owner would be covered if there's a warranty problem.

Roy, yes. Aware that Deere still speaks of break in oil, and even sells it, as I understand it, at their dealers. I cannot recall anyone else still using that expression or selling that product, but I do not know. It seems to be fading into history.

 

[jimgerken]

If I was in your shoes and thinking about changing oil early due to long time interval and short number of hours, I would put breakin oil back in the engine for certain. For the past 8 or so years, the local Deere dealer has been instructing his tractor customers to put Deere break-in oil in at the first change (that is, the first change when on the normal schedule as defined in the manual). The guys at the dealer say they are getting better performing engines by doing this. Some of it depends on the severity of the service too. If you are puttering around doing some loader work or maybe mowing with it, go ahead and do the first oil change on schedule and put in Deere break-in oil. If however, you actually have the opportunity to put some ground engaging equipment on the drawbar like a disk or a digger or plow, and can do ten or twenty hours of near-capacity work with it, consider it actually broke in and then when the schedule calls for it, change to the recommended oil. Even though I agree with the guy who said ""today's engines are machined better so little break-in is needed"", I believe there is no substitute for the actual sliding surfaces under actual pressures and normal heat cycles to finally get things worn together. I still advocate waiting a couple hundred hours before switching to synthetics in a tractor (again, tempered by the actual load being applied to the particular tractor). Part of the reason you see cars (Corvette) coming from the factory with syn oils is that they cannot cool them well enough for mineral based oils to survive, due to aerodynamic design of the hood. Another reason syn oils are factory shipped is for marketing purposes. It sounds good in the sales brochure, especially if you have no clue of all the factors that go into oil type choices.
Another thing that is widely known among diesel mechanics is the engines that wear out the soonest are the ones that are run a few minutes at a time, every day. Like skid loader engines that are used for chores. Started, barely warmed up to do a few daily tasks around the operation, and shut down again. They wear out with a definite taper in the cylinder bores, big and egg shaped at the top of the stroke.

 

[Rob-D]

Jim,
I have a friend who bought a Merc back in the 90's and it came with dyno oil in it. Now MB is advocating all synthetics as is Porsche I believe from the start. I remember 20 years ago most manufacturers did advise running a few hundred miles before going synthetics but most of the formulations have changed since then like Mobil 1.

I used to run synthetics after brake in (engine & hydro) on my tractors but now I run 100% Deere oils. The Amsoil I used in my hydraulics had a bad smell after hard use and I had some expansion contraction problems where I had to crack the hoses to get off the quick connects. I don't have those problems with Deere oils. I don't know who makes their oils but I think they are very good.

Subaru, by the way, doesn't recommend synthetics in there cars but I use M1 in it for our cold winter starting.

The most wear on engines is when they first start up. It's not bad if you shut it off and 5 minutes later restart it as most of the oil is still on the walls. It's that first start in the morning that really does the damage.

One of the funniest things I see people do is rev their engine just before they shut it off, mostly on gas cars. You can't do anything worse! It draws raw gas into the cylinders that gets to sit there all night.

Rob

 

[Don87]

Jim,
I have a friend who bought a Merc back in the 90's and it came with dyno oil in it. Now MB is advocating all synthetics as is Porsche I believe from the start. I remember 20 years ago most manufacturers did advise running a few hundred miles before going synthetics but most of the formulations have changed since then like Mobil 1.

I used to run synthetics after brake in (engine & hydro) on my tractors but now I run 100% Deere oils. The Amsoil I used in my hydraulics had a bad smell after hard use and I had some expansion contraction problems where I had to crack the hoses to get off the quick connects. I don't have those problems with Deere oils. I don't know who makes their oils but I think they are very good.

Subaru, by the way, doesn't recommend synthetics in there cars but I use M1 in it for our cold winter starting.

The most wear on engines is when they first start up. It's not bad if you shut it off and 5 minutes later restart it as most of the oil is still on the walls. It's that first start in the morning that really does the damage.

One of the funniest things I see people do is rev their engine just before they shut it off, mostly on gas cars. You can't do anything worse! It draws raw gas into the cylinders that gets to sit there all night.

Rob

Actually, it doesn't sit there. It washes the oil off the cylinder walls which results in dry starts, drains into the oil pan, and eventually thins the oil as a whole reducing lubrication of the engine.

 

[Rob-D]

Actually, it doesn't sit there. It washes the oil off the cylinder walls which results in dry starts, drains into the oil pan, and eventually thins the oil as a whole reducing lubrication of the engine.

Yes, I know, that's why I said it is the worst thing you can do.

Rob

 

[_RaT_]

Ditto what Gary said. I think we discussed this once or 257 times before.

I will put my $.01 in here. While changing the oil early definitely wont hurt anything but your pocket book and the remaining world oil reserve, I cant see the advantage or need. The manufacturer sets these maintenance intervals for a reason and that is to protect the equipment and thus their warranty. If they specify 50 hours, you can bet the farm that you dont need to change it any quicker than that. I am sure that they have hedged their bets to the point of overkill. I will relate to you what my truck dealer said regarding oil changes, change it when the manual tells you to and anything more is just wasting money and resources. Now I am sure someone is going to flame me, but the old mindset from the 8N tractor days of 3000 mile oil changes for autos is a thing of the past. The lubricants today are so much superior to then that it is no comparison to the wear rate back then and I would bet that back then we still had a 50 hour oil change. Those who still maintain that they do it to protect their investment are just wasting the valuable resources that we have for no benefit. Time is the most dangerous culprit in wear and tear on anything mechanical. There is a good reason why over the road tractor trucks get 3-4 million miles and it is only partially due to the quality of the engines, the biggest thing is that they are constantly running and rarely setting around to collect moisture and corrosion.
A new engine needs time to wear in the rings and bearings so they properly seat. These fine metallic particles collect in the oil filter and you will get rid of most of them with the first oil/filter change. The poorer the machining of the engine, the more wear particles you will have. I am told that some of the old soviet tank engines would wear up to 10 pounds of metal off in the first 50 hours of operation due to the poor machining. I sure hope our CUT engines and transmissions are much better than that. GO ahead Flame away.

 

[_RaT_]

Right On Roy, my thoughts as well.

I agree with you...when it comes to the automotive industry. However, that's not the tractor industry.
I'm sure most are aware Yanmar makes quite a few of the Deere CUT engines. These engines are not used in just tractors. Some are industrial, some marine usage. I don't expect that technology to be up to the highly regulated (in this case, fuel economy standards) automotive industries.

However, it's probably best to follow the manual. If the first oil change is called out at 50 hours, that's when you change it. If it calls out for 200 hours....then that's when you change it. At least the owner would be covered if there's a warranty problem.

 

[oldyellr]

" you know in the winter when you see all that frost on your tractor? (Heads nodded) That frost is in your oil and hydraulic lines and any farmer that wants to keep his equipment running without a big repair bill will change that oil/hydraulic fluid every spring. You can either change out the fluid or heat up the fluid on a regular basis to get rid of the moisture. Water will tear down your machine eventually.

Sounded good to everyone there.

Changing the oil at the end of the season is a better idea than letting stored machinery sit all winter with oil containing combustion by-products.

 

[oldyellr]

One reason to wait (I didn't see this in any of the previous posts, surprisingly, but I may have missed it) for the 50 hours is the engine break-in. Piston rings need to wear in to ensure a good seal and long life.
So, I'd go the 50 hours, even if you make time or tasks to use the tractor.

I don't know if the manufacturers do this anymore, but the original factory fill used to be a "break-in" oil which allowed a controlled amount of wear to bed in the moving parts and smooth out irregularities. Changing to a regular oil before the break-in process was complete could lead to seizure or abnormal oil consumption. Today engines are built with better materials and tighter clearances and break-in isn't necessary, other than not beating on it from the get go.

 

[RoyJackson]

Today engines are built with better materials and tighter clearances and break-in isn't necessary, other than not beating on it from the get go.

Like I wrote in my first post, I suggest you don't compare the automotive industry to the tractor industry. If the manual calls for a break in oil change, stick with the manual.

 

[sal64]

I recently purchased a new Massey Ferguson 1643. The owners manual recommends the first oil change at 50 hours. I don't put a lot of hours on my machine, so I probably won't hit 50 hours until a year from now. To me, that seems like a very long time to have the factory oil lubricating the engine. It has always been my understanding that the first oil change should be done sooner than usual to remove any metal debris from manunfactuing. My question is, is this still a valid thought with modern diesel engines and two, is there any harm in changing the oil out at say 15 or 25 hours? Thanks for the input.

in my oppinion i go by the hrs i purchased a 2320 about 2yrs ago and just changed the oil at 50hrs i only put about 25hrs a yr, hydro at 4 to 6 yrs about 200hrs.i have a 950 25yrs old 275hrs hydro never changed and it still runs strong.

 

[_RaT_]

Wow, I find it incredible that you can only put 25 hours on a year. Even when I was tractorless I put on more hours then that. I see it repeatedly here where folks put on so few hours a year. Perhaps its all relative. I figure I average about 300 - 350 hours a year, I suppose a farmer puts on that much in a day! :laughing:

in my oppinion i go by the hrs i purchased a 2320 about 2yrs ago and just changed the oil at 50hrs i only put about 25hrs a yr, hydro at 4 to 6 yrs about 200hrs.i have a 950 25yrs old 275hrs hydro never changed and it still runs strong.

 

[bp fick]

Such extremes. Geeeesh.

Some guys want to change the oil with less than 50 hours and someone else proudly points to hydro fluid not changed in 25 years.

There's just nothing to say. Speechless.:laughing:

 

[brucew44guns]

No flames from me. The single most important consideration of a lubricant is the viscosity. Engine builders give guidelines for which to use. They also tell us when to change to new oil, and change filters. As has been mentioned, it's usually good advise. Just a few years ago, the recommended oil drain interval on an over the road truck was 10K miles, now they routinely go 20, 25, 30 or more, depending on the haul, point being that oils are improved tremendousely. I worked for Flying J 12 years, we went 25 K on Cat motors, 30 on Cummins I believe, no troubles at all. If you run 20 minutes a week and shut it down, wait 2 weeks and run 15 minutes, some unusual short running spurts, you might feel better changing it a bit sooner. I have a new garden tiller, takes almost a quart to change it. I routinely change it at about 5 hours of use, thats just me, it probably is not needed. Use good judgement on your machine, it will balance out in the end.

 

[brucew44guns]

Forgot to mention, regarding "break-in-oil". Kenworth and Peterbilt assembly plants fill engines all day long with Chevron Delo 400 15W-40. New motors, and Delo 400 is not break-in-oil. Maybe tractor engines need more help adjusting to the real world, but a KW heads down the road day one with what Chevron hopes will always be used.

 

[Rob-D]

Forgot to mention, regarding "break-in-oil". Kenworth and Peterbilt assembly plants fill engines all day long with Chevron Delo 400 15W-40. New motors, and Delo 400 is not break-in-oil. Maybe tractor engines need more help adjusting to the real world, but a KW heads down the road day one with what Chevron hopes will always be used.

Bruce,
KW, probably like most manufacturers, uses oil that meets specific criteria, that doesn't mean it's the best oil. With that said, today's oils are so superior to previous oils that most are very, very good and will work in most applications.

I think tractor engines do see more dust and dirt so air and engine filters have to work harder than an on the road vehicle. It's apples and oranges, like Roy said.

If someone is only putting 200 hours or less a year on a tractor it's a moot point. With today's lubes and metallurgy you'll never wear the thing out!

Rob

 

[Danno1]

One of the funniest things I see people do is rev their engine just before they shut it off, mostly on gas cars. You can't do anything worse! It draws raw gas into the cylinders that gets to sit there all night.

One of the funniest things I see is those who mash the gas pedal to the floor in the winter as soon as the engine fires (cars I'm talking about).

Or jam it into drive almost before the starter's disengaged.


.

 

[Rob-D]

One of the funniest things I see is those who mash the gas pedal to the floor in the winter as soon as the engine fires (cars I'm talking about).

Or jam it into drive almost before the starter's disengaged.


.

Lets grind those rings up!