Thinking out loud

[handirifle]

Having built a new house, that we just moved into this spring, and needing to do all kinds of laying out irrigation lines, I got to wondering.

I do not want to rent a trencher, at $165 a day, because I have no idea where i want to lay them, and when I do have an idea, it will most likely change.....so you get that point.

Anyway, besides the above issue, i do not see the need to dig a 4" trench when all I need to lay in it is a 3/4" or 1" pipe.

Soooo, on to my thoughts. What I am wondering, is could a rototiller be converted to a trencher? One with the ability to trench about 12" deep? I was thinking that since they are already geards for digging anyway, and what if I removed all the tines and adapted some sort of bar and chain (or blade) setup to accomplish this?

It would not have to be hydraulically lowered (that would be nice however) since it's only 12", or so, I'd think you might be able to just lower the balde as you go.

Any ideas on this? Out of my mind?

 

[VitaBene]

Lay your system out and rent a true irrigation machine. It is not difficult, Google it if needed. The ditchwitch (or whatever brand) will pull the pipe and any cable needed at the same time with no mess.

 

[handirifle]

The real problem, is these are done in stages, and each stage might be a week or two apart, and that makes it cost prohibitive, for me. This idea might or might not be a good, or viable one, but something else will have to be done besides $165 a day.

 

[mjncad]

I think you'll spend far more than you expect trying to make such a conversion. If you do it, please post pictures.

Can you re-plan your stages to do all the trenching at one time, or two at the most?

 

[handirifle]

I think you'll spend far more than you expect trying to make such a conversion. If you do it, please post pictures.

This is always possible, thus wondering if such a thing had been done before. I did read a thread where someone simply removed all but one row of tines and dug a single 6" trench with a tiller.

Can you re-plan your stages to do all the trenching at one time, or two at the most?
Possibly, but it seems that as soon as I have turned it back in something else comes to light and it needs a trencher. My back can only take just so much shoveling these days.

I need a tiller for many reasons, and acted too slowly on a $200, 48", PTO, one that looked new. Now I cannot even find them locally. Most likely will end up with a walk behind model. I might also try to weld up one of the single tine, 3 point trenchers I have seen some make here. The only problem I'd forsee with those, is getting the tractor in where I need to do the trench. thirty years ago I'd have done it with a shovel, but my back will not take that kind of abuse any more.

 

[Don87]

Cheapest way is a middlebuster.

 

[Renze]

laying 3/4" flex pipe is done most easy with a subsoiler, with a pulley behind the chisel.
We layd 100's of meters of electrics with it. It works for tylene water lines too.

When converting the tiller you'll break it because the bigger diameter results in too much tip speed and not enough digging torque. Also a big enough trenching wheel wont fit under the frame, so you wont have a tiller to use next year, it will be wasted.

 

[Don87]

laying 3/4" flex pipe is done most easy with a subsoiler, with a pulley behind the chisel.
We layd 100's of meters of electrics with it. It works for tylene water lines too.

When converting the tiller you'll break it because the bigger diameter results in too much tip speed and not enough digging torque. Also a big enough trenching wheel wont fit under the frame, so you wont have a tiller to use next year, it will be wasted.

I was just going to mention the subsoiler option also:thumbsup:


Fred Cain Tractor 3 Point Hitch Subsoiler S-2

 

[smiley]

If you search this forum for re-cable laying you'll find a 3 pt subsoiler that may be adaptable to your use. I see no reason it shouldn't work if you have fairly sandy soil.
I tried to post the link below but couldn't. but I'm sure you can figure it out from here.
Smiley

kennyd
Super Member

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Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Westminster, MD
Posts: 8,456

Default Re: cable laying
Here are a couple pics of one that I made...
The "tooth" is just a box blade ripper that you can get at TSC for $20.00.
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[smiley]

As I thought about this a little more, it almost seems like one might be able to remove the tines of a tiller and fit a disc on each side, with a couple teeth welded on it at an angle, to at least rip open the dirt so it would be easy enough to remove with it a trench shovel. If the discs were rugged enough, it might even be possible to weld a flare on each side under the teeth to the shaft that would throw most of the dirt off to the sides. I doubt that unless you've got a real tall tiller, you'd get 12" of depth though.
I'm just thinking out loud too.
Smiley

 

[handirifle]

A cable layer wouldn't work because I use mostly sched 40 PVC for sprinkler lines. It's not flexible like that.

Renze
I was really thinking more along the lines of a smaller wheel that could be lowered to the desired depth. I agree 100% on the loss of torque with the big wheel.

I gotta think this out a bit. I think it's doable, but it needs some thought. No way do I want this to be expensive, that defeats the purpose. If it's costly I might as well rent a ditch witch.

 

[mjncad]

I can relate to the bad back issue. If you go the trencher route, you might look into a Dingo type unit that you stand on to operate.

My brother-in-law and I rented a walk behind trencher about 10-years ago to put in a sprinkler system at my Mom's place. Typical 6,000 square foot suburbs yard. My B-I-L is ten years older than me; but in better physical shape and he said that walk behind Ditch Witch beat the crap out of him.

 

[handirifle]

I can relate to the bad back issue. If you go the trencher route, you might look into a Dingo type unit that you stand on to operate.

My brother-in-law and I rented a walk behind trencher about 10-years ago to put in a sprinkler system at my Mom's place. Typical 6,000 square foot suburbs yard. My B-I-L is ten years older than me; but in better physical shape and he said that walk behind Ditch Witch beat the crap out of him.

Yea I have used them a lot out here in this last year, and they are a bear. My neighbor loaned me his personal ride on trencher, with a 40hp Kubota engine (sorry cannot remember brand), when I need to trench for the 120ft run for my shop electric lines. That took about 40 minutes....what a difference. I did use this same trencher to run the main line for my sprinklers, but sadly that's just a tad too big to dig my sprinkler lines.

 

[jcims]

Interesting question. I think you'd need to go with a chain due to the previously mentioned torque reduction with a large wheel.

Some thought provoking options here:

http://replacementdiggingparts.com

Have to dig around a bit (lol, sorry), but there are parts for every bit of the chain, some of which you might be able to fabricate.

http://replacementdiggingparts.com/DWPARTS1654-ditchwitch.html

Easier option might be to use sprockets and chain off of an old motorcycle to do a simple speed reduction so you can stick with the digger wheel idea.

 

[handirifle]

Interesting question. I think you'd need to go with a chain due to the previously mentioned torque reduction with a large wheel.

Some thought provoking options here:

The Replacement Digging Parts Co - Trencher Parts, Chain, Trencher Teeth, Carbide Bits, Sprockets, Rollers, Chain Repair Parts, bucket Teeth, Tiller Blades<title><script type="text/javascript"> var _gaq = _gaq || []; _gaq.push(['_setAccount', 'UA-150

Have to dig around a bit (lol, sorry), but there are parts for every bit of the chain, some of which you might be able to fabricate.

D/W parts 1.654" Pitch

Easier option might be to use sprockets and chain off of an old motorcycle to do a simple speed reduction so you can stick with the digger wheel idea.

Ha! You know I was wondering what type of chain might work. Funny thing is I just sold, what is most likely my last motorcycle, and didn't even think of a motorcycle chain. Mine was a 600cc, and that chain would be too light, but maybe one from a larger bike would do it. That would be ab easy way to locate proper size sprockets as well.

THAT is why I post my thoughts on forums like this one. It's better to hear from many folks with MANY ideas.

Now, to locate a reasonable donor tiller to modify. I wonder if one could be modded temporarily, and be able to be restored to a normal tiller?

 

[smiley]

I don't think you'd have much of a problem with torque reduction with a large wheel or chain. If you stop and think about it, a tiller is constantly pulling 6 or 8 tines at once, usually bent at a sharp angle through the dirt. Now if you mounted all those tines in one place on that shaft so they were lined up one behind the other, you'd narrow the cutting face way up. You'd be pulling only a small fraction of the normal tiller surface area. With either a chain or disc, even with multiple teeth you'd still be chewing only at a narrow face at any given time. Just don't be in a hurry. If I had any use for one, I'd take one of the old tillers out back and build one just out of curiosity's sake, but here in our stone garden, you'd rattle it's and your teeth out in no time.
As a side note on trenching, we were putting in shoulder underdrain with a large wheel trencher in Inlet, NY and were constantly bouncing off granite boulders. We didn't think too much about it when we hit another obstruction and were pulling up concrete dust. Figured it was an old sidewalk or wall, but when it started spitting chunks of steel we decided to stop. Turns out the engineer in charge had changed the location of a drainaige structure by about 20 ft the previous year and never noted it on the plans. Cut that sucker almost in half. Put in a new one at NY States expense.

 

[Redgoatea]

I have this same issue but frankly this whole idea smacks of time and effort I'm planning on using a middlebuster as someone else also suggested. That's my vote. 7

 

[brokenot]

These work well:

YouTube - Irrigation Installation Made Easy

Another model, this one is easier to see the wheel in operation. They also mention wheel rpm is ~800 or so....much faster than a tiller shaft rotates.

YouTube - Kwik Trench Little Beaver Augers

If I had a lot of trenching to do, I'd build one. There's really nothing to it. Just a wheel with some carbide cutters, belt-driven from a small engine. The whole shebang is raised and lowered to control depth with a trailer jack.

Your tiller adaptation idea's biggest drawback will probably be lack of cutter rpm. Not saying it won't work if given enough time, but compare your tiller's shaft speed to the cutter wheel speed in the videos

 

[handirifle]

I have this same issue but frankly this whole idea smacks of time and effort I'm planning on using a middlebuster as someone else also suggested. That's my vote. 7

As for ease of construction, and cost, you're most likely correct. I just can't shake this idea.

This, certainly is not a heavy duty idea, it's a light duty, concept, meant for trenching narrow trenches for sprinkler lines. This is geared to compete with someone using a trenching shovel, rather than a 900 lb. Ditch Witch.

 

[ecoslik]

I sincerely believe that you could get everything done in a day with a rented, quality trencher. You might think of this as 2 stages, main lines giving yourself abundant distribution (future proof and overkill) and branch lines around your structures and a grid in between based on the sprinkler head broadcast distances for your water pressure.

Over the last year, I installed 1000's feet of PVC water lines (some electric and cable/data/phone also) for house, mother-in-law house, food garden, wild flower garden, shop, barn, 4 acres of irrigation, and a 1300' foot run for a tree line. I really don't know how many feet total, but I'm guessing that I dug about 1/8 with a shovel and pick and 7/8 with three different types of rented trenchers. Importantly, I did put all of these lines at 2'-4' depth for the occassional hard freezes that we have in North Texas; the person that I bought the property from told me a story about his first Christmas on the property when they had frozen, in-ground (8"-12") water lines for 14 days leaving a dozen family members (some extended family included) with only an outhouse and trucked in water to use.

I sat down with a survey of my property; quickly drew a trench layout that served these structures to my well (large storage tank) and the pole where I get my power and cable. I cut these main trenches in one day of rental. When I laid these lines, I oversized with 1.5" PVC because I didn't know how much flow would be needed in any given area, plus I added dozens of ball valves so I had lots of options to tie into the mains since I hadn't planned every branch/accessory detail I wanted to get water flowing to the main house.

For all the branch lines which included most of the sprinkler system and all sorts of hose bibs around the property, I looked up the broadcast distance of rotary sprinkler heads for my water pressure (about 20'-25'), and then in one day I cut all the trenches for branch lines along the perimeter of all structures, planting beds, drives, and the boundary lines of my "residential area" with a 45' grid spaced inside the perimeters.

The 1300' cut for a 600' tree line was the most recent project and cut in one day.

I dug 300' of all this with hand tools in very hard ground and almost ruined myself in 100+ heat.

I backfilled and compacted all my trenches by hand. For most of this, I backfilled over several months. I learned along the way that if I didn't backfill before the next rain or many rains that it was very difficult to backfill the trench with the spoils. By the time I did the 1300', I decided to backfill the same day of or day after cutting the trench so that the spoils were still loose and easy to work back into the trench. I only wish I had my tractor sooner!!! :confused2:

My enthusiasm for buried lines caused quite a few laughs with some tradesmen that were doing work with me. :laughing: