How to kill yourself without knowing

[nebraskasparks]

I will try and draw some sketches and scan them so I can show the diagram that I visualize later on.

For now...If you take a model tractor and take a dowel and run it through the center of its gravity/mass...that's what I'm visualizing with my tractor. Keeping that dowel perpendicular to level ground and changing the angle/slope that the tractor is on will give you so many degrees from level and you are then able to compute the height that the wheels and tires would be above level ground.
Tilting your model tractor sideways you can do the same thing. Models and sticks are still used in the fighter pilot community for briefing because visualization is the most successful training aid. It may sound stupid using a model tractor and a dowel rod...but if you were to show young people the affect of a load, front or back and how slope affects it...this would be a great training aid for farm safety. Turning the wheels up or down slope could also show various affects on stability.

Hanging the FEL or attachment on the three point obviously changes center of gravity/mass. Balancing something of similar weight on the opposite end is common sense which is usually forgotten when one gets in a hurry to get things done. I've looked at many of the fatal accidents online and you'll find an implement that wasn't completely attached on the other end or parked not far away that could have provided the balance needed to prevent the fatality.

The dynamic we change is the amount of force or load you pick up (large round bales etc) that you exert on either end and the angle the tractor is positioned in by the operator, slope, soil conditions potholes...you name it.

Parameters that would cause a definite tip which would be tractor angle, load elevation and weight etc...could easily be programmed to where the hydraulics could be deactivated and the intellipanel could leave a message such as Load Balance, tractor angle etc. Obviously the algorithm programmed by the engineers could not take into affect soil conditions that change over a few feet (dry to mud etc) but gps/ring laser gyros compute angles and height instantaneously today and if a tire were to sink and change the angle of the tractor this would be detected immediately. The prices on these devices have dropped like a lead suitcase in the last ten years and all this is feasible without interrupting a successful day in the field unless you were trying to put yourself in a casket.

I guess the reason that I am so emphatic on safety is that I've dealt with it all my life and was trained to investigate and look for solutions all these years. I've also buried a number of friends and acquaintances that were not as "lucky" as I was to survive and I've never forgotten the tears of children that no longer have a Dad. It sucks and I will always push engineers and companies to come up with a better product.

Truth in any field or occupation goes through three stages...first it's ridiculed, second stage is violent opposition...then it is eventually accepted as fact Increase in knowledge and technology means that we can do better things in the future.

 

[SpringHollow]

It would be very inexpensive to add angle kill switches - basically the same system that my automatic tilting seat has would work (mercury switches). For probably even less money, one could use the sensors in the iPhone/iTouch. But a simple kill switch would also be very dangerous. Warning beeps would as simple and inexpensive to have installed. Control (loader, steering) would not hard to do but would start to get pricey and would also be hard to make it safe for all situations.

ken

 

[/pine]

5 seconds reaction time is ludicrous...

if this were true the death rate on our roads and airways would be 50%-75% higher than it is...

still waiting for factual data sources to be posted by the OP...

 

[texasjohn]

/pine, Nebraskasparks posted his personal, professional expertise/experience and example where a friend had 5 seconds reaction time and it was insufficient ...the friend died. The OP may or may not have supporting data... nevertheless, Nebraskasparks has completely supported the number.

I now buy the 5 second reaction number as very realistic when in a complex situation and the unanticipated happens. For the drag strip example where the action is simple and the anticipated red/amber/green sequence happens, I also buy the .4 or .5 second action time.

Nebraskasparks, that's an excellent post regarding the image of a model tractor with dowel demonstrating center of mass and how it moves. For me, a surprising thing is when carrying a round bale of hay on FEL spear. Typically I carry one on rear fork, one on FEL spear. Occasionally some unique situation causes me to place the rear bale first and then drive around to place front bale...... if I get going kinda fast then whip the front wheels tightly to turn the tractor, a WOW moment happens as the rotational velocity and moments of force combine to cause attention getting tractor instability. I can feel that had I been going faster, or made a sharper turn I could have easily turned over.

Might be an opportunity for a computer game/simulation except that we'd need a tractor seat that tips, bounces, etc. to be sufficiently realistic:laughing:

 

[/pine]

Nebraskasparks has completely supported the number.

yes I agree for a convoluted, un-typical scenario...but not for a practical (applicable) algorithm...

 

[nebraskasparks]

In regard to the reaction times. You can use Google and when the menu comes up for selection at the right side is a category labeled "more". Under "more" you can select Scholar or Scholarly articles and you can investigate on your own all the various categories of cognitive/reaction response times to various issues. Even different cultural issues and upbringings bring about different responses in people. You will probably get your PHD in Cognitive studies when you're finished!

I can't quote paragraph and verse on the reaction time but the 5 second reaction time was beat home over and over for many years both in the military and civilian industries....unless thorough training was involved. That's why aviators had to memorize "Bold Face" or "Time Critical Actions" letter perfect and perform them letter perfect because the human being can react very fast indeed IF THEY HAVE BEEN TRAINED according to the situation they find themselves in.

If we put the recent incident that was posted on TBN where the operator is put into an unfamiliar situation but was saved by the seatbelt...the action and reaction to this same event we vary greatly over a large population. If we were able to put a large "tractor" population into a simulator the results would surprise most of us. As Tom Hanks was quoted in the film for Apollo 13 when the sim session went bad..."If you gave me a nickel for every screw up in here I'd be a rich man....lets do it again till we get it right".


Despite all the great training we had in the USAF...we had a pilot that went out of control during a dogfight and ejected safely. He did the Time Critical Actions and they didn't work.
The accident investigators found the throttles in idle and everyone danced on this fellow like he was the village idiot of aviation. No where in the Time Critical instructions was there anything about checking power settings. This was "common sense" and the "idiot" should have known better. This gets better.

I was giving simulator sessions to fellow instructors (who had put the leper title on this aviator) and I put the simulator out of control and had the backseater move the throttles to idle without the pilot knowing and nearly every single pilot failed to advance the throttles. Every time the pilot picked up some airspeed to recover he stalled again because of the lack of power. I created a fire storm in that situation also...:laughing:

When things are not going your way and you don't know why they are not going your way....even 5 seconds seems like a quick reaction.

Having a plan because of good education and experience...like was mentioned where the operator holds his load low and has his hand ready to drop the FEL should "anything" out of the norm happen is a result of good training and experience which leads to short reaction times versus the 5 seconds.

All I'm trying to say is that the industry Tractor Operator Manuals are archaic because they don't even have a basic weight and balance charts and there is no excuse for this along with the fact that we have the technology that is cheap and cost affective to save a lot of people which turn out to be husbands, wives and kids that live next door or write for TBN.

When I find some decent diagrams showing moment arms etc that we can show in relation to moving a FEL etc...I'll pass them on. So far as reaction times...there are a multitude of factors that affect this for every human being.

Best Wishes
Greg

 

[/pine]

I can't quote paragraph and verse on the reaction time but the 5 second reaction time was beat home over and over for many years both in the military and civilian industries....

If this time of 5 seconds is as you say "beat home over and over for many years"
it should be quite easy to cite some bona fide sources...others have already posted sources that say it (reaction tme) is less than half of your claims...

 

[timswi]

If this time of 5 seconds is as you say "beat home over and over for many years"
it should be quite easy to cite some bona fide sources...others have already posted sources that say it (reaction tme) is less than half of your claims...

I'm really trying to figure out why this 5 second thing is so important to you...Explain please.

 

[/pine]

I'm really trying to figure out why this 5 second thing is so important to you...Explain please.

...it's not important to me I just deem it absurd...considering the fact that the OP has been unable to support it with anything other than his own supposition...and the fact that there has been supporting data (cited) that contradicts it...

 

[doall]

I think in certain situations 5 seconds might seem high. Like baseball( batter reacting to 95 mph fast ball.) yes he knows the ball is coming to him and he is ready. line drive to short stop. He's ready but he didn't know it was coming to him. Both are way less than 1 second. But where decisions that are not muscle memory and multiple steps need to be taken-maybe 5 seconds who knows. It's all relative to the situation. I think some are talking about apples and some oranges.