How to kill yourself without knowing

[hawkeye08]

Enjoyed everyone's input....dropping an apple can be done instantaneously...peeling an orange...takes 5 seconds:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:

Thanks for the starting the post and keeping your sense of humor. Some strong opinions but in the end, everyone knows it takes some time to react correctly and in many situations, we don't have very much time to determine proper course of action.:thumbsup:

 

[Egon]

Apples and oranges mentioned again. It is very possible to compare them in the proper parameters.:thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[dmccarty]

Any moment now somebody is going to give an actual account of what happens when attacked by wild mountain gorillas:laughing:

First you scream.
Then you poo in your pants.
Maybe pee.
Then you likely have your arms torn off your body.
Death.

The order can be changed a bit depending on circumstances.

Later,
Dan

 

[texasjohn]

I knew I'd get a first person story....likely dmccarty is dead, right:thumbsup::confused2:

 

[dmccarty]

I knew I'd get a first person story....likely dmccarty is dead, right:thumbsup::confused2:

Nah, I saw it on Survivor Man. :laughing::laughing:

Later,
Dan

 

[Soundguy]

There is data, but it won't support his numbers. He's making them up I suspect. The typically accepted number is right around 1/2 second. That's how they set the timing for drag racing lights.

I agree.. ever see those games where the lamp lights up and you slap the lit button. if the reaction time was 5 seconds.. heck.. there would be NOOOOO video games..

soundguy

 

[LostInTheWoods]

All of us have a built in tilt meter somewhere between the ears!::thumbsup:

I think mine's located in a different body part ...

 

[dmccarty]

Nah, I saw it on Survivor Man. :laughing::laughing:

Later,
Dan

Thankfully I was watching Survivor Man or maybe it was Wild Kingdom with Marlin Perkins? It was some such show.

Anyway, I learned how to deal with Big Apes. One day I was working on our land and I saw this fellow. He had obviously NOT read our No Trespass signs!

We had a chat in the woods. He thumped his chest. I thumbed mine. Then one of us left.

Later,
Dan

 

[Soundguy]

I think mine's located in a different body part ...

on me, that 'other part' is the one that grips the seat and bites a hole in my pants doing so..

soundguy

 

[LostInTheWoods]

All of us have a built in tilt meter somewhere between the ears!::thumbsup:

on me, that 'other part' is the one that grips the seat and bites a hole in my pants doing so..

soundguy

Precisely! "Between the cheeks", instead of "between the ears".

 

[SPYDERLK]

Just a quick internet search brings a wealth of information. From one article, you can see in the summary that the time varies greatly, depending on the situation. (http://www.harristechnical.com/articles/human.pdf)

5 seconds seems like a good compromise for this discussion.

Some studies indicate that at night, because of restricted vision and driver expectation, that the time to perceive, react and maneuver is considerably longer. In a video presentation prepared by the 3M Company, "The Beauty of Conspicuity," a section on Decision Sight Distance explains that the Federal Highway Administration (FHWA) commissioned Biotechnology to study the time/distance situation regarding nighttime rear-end accidents.

The study results show that a driver "with average reflexes, eyesight, decisiveness and sobriety, driving an average car" [at 60 miles an hour] will take almost three seconds to see and recognize a hazard, almost seven seconds to decide on a course of action, and almost four-point-five seconds to complete a maneuver."


This is not to say, the study goes on, that the rule to allow 100 feet of stopping distance for each 10 mph, is entirely invalid. But at night, when a tractor-semitrailer is blocking the road, motorists must identify the problem when they are one-quarter mile away. Therefore, in the 14.5 seconds necessary to see, perceive (recognize), decide what to do, and then do it, a vehicle will travel 1,276 feet. If the recognition begins a quarter mile away (1,320 ft), the motorist has a "cushion" of 44 feet.

Sounds like these people are initially asleep as opposed to alert ... or else the study is flawed in other, perhaps multiple, ways. One does not have to conduct a study of a situation in order to react when driving. You steer, and either brake or accelerate. Those are the practiced priorities.
larry

 

[Reg]

I seem to remember other studies that show how limited most of us (with average x, y, z, including sobriety) are in our ability to "concentrate" on our driving for more than a very short time.
Driving is monotonous, boring, etc., we just about SEARCH for distractions.
There is some evidence that the best race car drivers are those who can keep their attention span for the longest time, not necessarily the ones with the fastest lap times or the highest speed in any particular section.

Night time driving in particular, when the hypnotic effect of the tail lights just ahead - Ooops, they went to BRIGHT red some number of seconds ago.

I read and hear of a lot of bragging about drives from one place to another in "18 hours straight through, only stopped for pee, coffee and gas - no problem, you can do it".
OTOH one of my sons drives a tow truck and there is NO shortage of work for him, some of which is very unpleasant, tragic in far too many cases.
Anecdotal ? Sure, but their area is very limited. If I count up the number of tow truck drivers at the place where he works, the number of similar tow truck companies that cover the same area.....
Yes, it would SEEM that many people DO drive too fast too close for the level of attention they devote to the task. They are essentially asleep at the wheel.

 

[LostInTheWoods]

Hi guys, after some initial apples to oranges discussion errors this became an interesting topic.

The slower figure (5 sec) is not only appropriate for something complicated as a modern war bird or the space shuttle. It isn't the overall complexity of the machine that is the driving factor it is the complexity of the analysis.

Oh, and regarding the aeronautical sourced information that evoked impassioned disbelievers... Get over it, like the laws of physics your opinion not withstanding the aero dude told it like it is. Like gravity, it just is and can't be changed.

Pat,

In defense of /pine, I don't think he was calling BS on anyone, he just wanted to see the hard numbers. I can appreciate that. Its pretty easy to google physics equations/gravity. Not to mention most of us covered that in school once upon a time.

Not as easy to sort through and digest reliable data in regard to specific applications.

Hawkeye08's study points to a number of variables that contribute to reaction time. Driver age, experience, familiarity with equipment, visual acuity, level of alertness/fatigue, distractions, vehicle speed, and weather conditions.

When I read it, it still seems to lean to reaction times of "1.75 sec (daytime) and 2.5 sec (nightime)" as "good places to start" in the summary.

It mentions the 3M company's study findings of "at night, when a tractor-semitrailer is blocking the road, motorists must identify the problem when they are one-quarter mile away. Therefore, in the 14.5 seconds necessary to see, perceive (recognize), decide what to do, and then do it, a vehicle will travel 1,276 feet. If the recognition begins a quarter mile away (1,320 ft), the motorist has a "cushion" of 44 feet."

But, of course, 3M manufactures reflective tape that can be applied around the backs and sides of semi trailers. If the study they funded just happens to lead to federal regulations that all of the many thousands of trailers in the country are required to be outlined with the stuff...well, no one would ever think a company would go so far as to fudge numbers to drive up sales .

And its hard to tell in an online forum, but I'm assuming many posters here are tongue-in-cheek about microwaves and ground penetrating radar.
I would imagine those devices cost more than my tractor. As far as what could be added to a tractor practically, I dunno. Like you said, most people don't even bother with tilt meters (including me). I would venture to guess if tractors started coming to market with kill switches/overrides, many users would disable them. <shrug>

 

[lungdoc]

This is a great thread, thanks to the OP for sharing his expertise. The aviation safety business has been YEARS ahead of other industries when it comes to safety analysis and human factor engineering, as well as the use of simulators for training. In health care we have finally started to apply some of the same principals to medical errors and training and I can tell you watching yourself on a video simulation of a crisis/code is an eye-opening experience. 5 seconds seems FAST to me for example for an ICU doctor, surgeon or anesthesiologist to identify and take the correct action if a patient suddenly changes in front of them.

Very simple design/ergonomic changes can have profound impact on safety in emergency situations. There's a famous aviation example where pilots in WWII were having accidents on landings because the flap switch was next to the landing gear switch and pilots were putting wheels up by mistake. The solution was 99 cent pieces of rubber on the switches so the flap switch looked and felt like a little flap and the gear switch was a little rubber wheel on it that felt like a wheel. Accident rates plummeted.

I think the OP is saying we should expect the tractor industry to think along these lines and provide systems and controls that support operator safety. Simple tilt alerts linked to tractor tilt and loader position would be an excellent start. Unfortunately I think the legal climate esp in USA is such that sometimes providing any system can lead to lawsuits and liability and manufacturers might feel less liable with no warning system for X risk (but maybe some legalese in the owners manual) than a system that could be perceived as less than perfect. Same sort of legal climate after all lead to no private single seat airplanes being made in USA for many years; yet old Cessnas were fine.

 

[Dr_Zinj]

I go with nebraskasparks on this one for extremely complex situations. That matches up with what we see in emergency and operating rooms at the hospital. Most of the times there's too many variables to consider to make a snap judgement and react correctly to the situation.

It's easy to make a quick reaction if you remove the judgement portion. You do that either by having a single reaction to any situation, or by training a reaction set for several variations.

Obviously a jump back reaction works for almost any situation that a hunter-gatherer would encounter. Bear claw swipe, pouncing cougar, striking rattlesnake, wife with a sharp knife, it all works fine.

Pre-programmed reactions to various different stimuli is something that surgeons and pilots do. It's also what martial artists train for. The goal is to program your body to instinctually make a certain movement set when presented with the appropriate situation. In those cases, reaction speed is in the fractions of a second.

The thing is, I don't know anyone who practices reaction responses to tractor rollovers. You could build a simulator to practice on and shave that response down to 0.5 seconds; but it's not cost or resource efficient to do so. Might make an interesting competitive sport for the country fair circuit though. :laughing:

 

[nebraskasparks]

Thanks lungdoc. The point I was trying to make was just that...the Ag and Mechanical Engineering programs are using great technology to increase yields etc with GPS etc but when it comes to safety...aviation is light years ahead because when we "auger in" we don't just kill one or two folks and for some reason dying in a plane crash is deemed horrible while getting pinned by equipment is an "acceptable loss" in the ag/equipment industry. I wouldn't be so intense on the idea except for the fact that my family line and farming go back many generations.
Farm families are the salt of the earth, provide food for the entire planet and if anyone deserves a free government cash infusion to provide better technology, safety methods and training it's the folks that till the earth or have to work around equipment to make things happen.

I know I contributed to some of the confusion and intensity on this thread by not specifying reaction time (apples) from cognitive solutions to startling situations (oranges) and the occasional gorilla:laughing:. We've got some really fast folks at TBN! Excellent dialogue from a lot of intelligent and common sensed folks. People that work with their hands and their minds. :thumbsup:

When I see the notices about accidents it rips me up personally because I've been involved in picking up body parts from people that were very intelligent because of old engineering and other situations that develop faster than our library retrieval system works at times in our minds. More can be done in Ag Safety and Engineering Design. Sure it takes engineering teams and operators to get together but what fantastic machinery could be created that would not inhibit getting the job done.
I too get annoyed as of late leaning sideways to observe my bucket and hearing the engine sputter...but when kids fall out of combines and tractors and get run over you know there's some thinking going on behind these mods.
When we all ask ourselves why we've become so wise...it's because the path was made of mistakes that we lived through and try to pass on to others. The TBN website and it's contributors bring out great discussion and passion which lawyers and manufacturers don't want to touch.

Then there's the ten percent that will never listen to anything or anybody and you can't protect them from themselves.

 

[hawkeye08]

Some excellent points the last several posts, enjoyed reading them :thumbsup:

I was thinking, what if there was an electronic tilt meter that had an adjustable alarm available? Operators could use it for reference (without alarm) or set the alarm to warn them when the tilt reaches the threshold they set?

I know that I am much more cautious when I first start working a hill than I am after I've been working it awhile.

side note, I had a guy see my rear mount finish mower and comment that he took the pto shield off, that it was garbage and did not save lives... as he looked closer, he saw the little chain attaching the shield to the toplink or mower and started to ask what it was for...then realized that it stopped the shield from spinning. Apparently, his did not have the chains or he took them off...

 

[LostInTheWoods]

I go with nebraskasparks on this one for extremely complex situations. That matches up with what we see in emergency and operating rooms at the hospital. Most of the times there's too many variables to consider to make a snap judgement and react correctly to the situation.

It's easy to make a quick reaction if you remove the judgement portion. You do that either by having a single reaction to any situation, or by training a reaction set for several variations.

Obviously a jump back reaction works for almost any situation that a hunter-gatherer would encounter. Bear claw swipe, pouncing cougar, striking rattlesnake, wife with a sharp knife, it all works fine.

Pre-programmed reactions to various different stimuli is something that surgeons and pilots do. It's also what martial artists train for. The goal is to program your body to instinctually make a certain movement set when presented with the appropriate situation. In those cases, reaction speed is in the fractions of a second.

The thing is, I don't know anyone who practices reaction responses to tractor rollovers. You could build a simulator to practice on and shave that response down to 0.5 seconds; but it's not cost or resource efficient to do so. Might make an interesting competitive sport for the country fair circuit though. :laughing:

Excellent synopsis. Well-spoken. :thumbsup:

 

[hawkeye08]

Hawkeye08's study points to a number of variables that contribute to reaction time. Driver age, experience, familiarity with equipment, visual acuity, level of alertness/fatigue, distractions, vehicle speed, and weather conditions.

When I read it, it still seems to lean to reaction times of "1.75 sec (daytime) and 2.5 sec (nightime)" as "good places to start" in the summary.

It mentions the 3M company's study findings of "at night, when a tractor-semitrailer is blocking the road, motorists must identify the problem when they are one-quarter mile away. Therefore, in the 14.5 seconds necessary to see, perceive (recognize), decide what to do, and then do it, a vehicle will travel 1,276 feet. If the recognition begins a quarter mile away (1,320 ft), the motorist has a "cushion" of 44 feet."

But, of course, 3M manufactures reflective tape that can be applied around the backs and sides of semi trailers. If the study they funded just happens to lead to federal regulations that all of the many thousands of trailers in the country are required to be outlined with the stuff...well, no one would ever think a company would go so far as to fudge numbers to drive up sales .

And its hard to tell in an online forum, but I'm assuming many posters here are tongue-in-cheek about microwaves and ground penetrating radar.
I would imagine those devices cost more than my tractor. As far as what could be added to a tractor practically, I dunno. Like you said, most people don't even bother with tilt meters (including me). I would venture to guess if tractors started coming to market with kill switches/overrides, many users would disable them. <shrug>

Agree about the study, just one of many found on the internet...

 

[TripleR]

Wish I had found this earlier, very interesting reading. Some people have very impressive credentials and make good points as do others. I personally don't want any of that stuff on my tractor as I believe civil liability considerations would probably prompt the manufacturers to make a tractor almost unusable to all but the most inexperienced operators. I live among professional, day in day out tractor operators and can pretty much guarantee they would have lights and warning sirens going off all day long or be constantly restarting their tractor or more likely disable all of it.

I have had my newest tractor for a couple of months with quite a few hours on it and I am taking my time learning the safe operating parameters, maybe in a few more months I will actually become skilled in operating it, until then it is an incremental process with safety in mind at all times.

As to reaction times, I won't even go there.