An Old Goat Ranch in Texas

[terry.dinerman]

The "Commissariat of Power" line crews have been spotted at TOGR! :cool2:
Just as "Joe the Inspector" promised, they swarmed the place and apparently knocked it out in one day.

None of my usual co-conspirators have had the nerve to throw the main breaker yet, so it looks like the honor will be mine....

I have some Christmas lights to decorate the meter pole for the deer...

This is a BIG step in the Master Plan....the only other development issue that requires any form of inspection out there in the unincorporated areas of my county is the septic system...

So - I am putting together my materials list for the next leg...a 300' run to the barn and a sub-panel...

One project done, another begun....I believe I will have me a cee-gar...

 

[jinman]

Major congrats!:thumbsup: Power, waterwell, and septic are the "comfort trinity" that make all the difference.

 

[EddieWalker]

I'm really enjoying your progress and challenges. It's been a fun ride to follow along.

Thanks for a great thread,
Eddie

 

[terry.dinerman]

I'm really enjoying your progress and challenges. It's been a fun ride to follow along.

Thanks for a great thread,
Eddie

Thanks, Bub!

And don't forget YOU started it....

A funny thing....I was re-reading your water-main advice the other day while I was working up a sketch and materials bill for TOGR....and wondering.... how are things going up in Tyler?

BE SAFE...

T

 

[terry.dinerman]

CALLING ALL ELECTRICIANS ... !

While working up my materials list for a barn power feeder, I have run into a speed-bump in the form of dueling wire size calculators ...

The specifics of the job are, I intend a 60 amp 240VAC single phase service from main disconnect panel adjacent to my transformer with a 300 run of 3 THHN copper conductors in buried conduit to the barn sub-panel, where a #4 copper ground to a ground rod to provide the discrete ground required by a sub-panel service.

The loads anticipated are a steady state of 4,000 watts if the AC in the office, the freezers, small appliances, all the lights in the place are on and every receptacle has an appliance plugged in and running at one time, and an additional surge of 2,400 watts if I crank up my wire feed welder....

The first calculator inputs 1/2 of the run in its calculation and gives #4 copper wires as a result, the second asks for 100% of the length of the run and returns #2 ....

#1 Wire Size Calculator

#2 Wire Size Calculator

So ... which calculator is correct in this situation?

In addition, in consideration of the high cost of wire I would like to compare the cost of aluminum vs copper for this application.

Another question regarding the service....Would it be better to :

• Run the conductors for the barn sub-panel directly off the busses in the main panel and let them be protected by the 200amp main breaker (this is a feed-thru type breaker panel) and install a 60 amp main breaker at the barn sub-panel...

OR

• Run the feed to the barn off a 60 amp breaker in the main panel and use a load center at the barn....

As usual, all opinions, advice and anecdotes are welcomed ...

 

[bdeboer]

CALLING ALL ELECTRICIANS ... !

While working up my materials list for a barn power feeder, I have run into a speed-bump in the form of dueling wire size calculators ...

The specifics of the job are, I intend a 60 amp 240VAC single phase service from main disconnect panel adjacent to my transformer with a 300 run of 3 THHN copper conductors in buried conduit to the barn sub-panel, where a #4 copper ground to a ground rod to provide the discrete ground required by a sub-panel service.

The loads anticipated are a steady state of 4,000 watts if the AC in the office, the freezers, small appliances, all the lights in the place are on and every receptacle has an appliance plugged in and running at one time, and an additional surge of 2,400 watts if I crank up my wire feed welder....

The first calculator inputs 1/2 of the run in its calculation and gives #4 copper wires as a result, the second asks for 100% of the length of the run and returns #2 ....

#1 Wire Size Calculator

#2 Wire Size Calculator

So ... which calculator is correct in this situation?

In addition, in consideration of the high cost of wire I would like to compare the cost of aluminum vs copper for this application.

Another question regarding the service....Would it be better to :

• Run the conductors for the barn sub-panel directly off the busses in the main panel and let them be protected by the 200amp main breaker (this is a feed-thru type breaker panel) and install a 60 amp main breaker at the barn sub-panel...

OR

• Run the feed to the barn off a 60 amp breaker in the main panel and use a load center at the barn....

As usual, all opinions, advice and anecdotes are welcomed ...

The second method of running from a 60 amp breaker is the correct way, or you have to size the wire for the 200 amp breaker. There are exceptions to this if the conductors are under 10 feet etc.

Have you considered going to a 100 amp panel? When you start adding a microwave etc.

 

[CurlyDave]

I don't think you will be allowed to run these wires directly from the busses in the main panel. You must use a 60 Amp breaker in the main panel for them.

If you use a 60 Amp breaker in the main panel, this ampacity chart Ampacity Charts shows you will need 6 ga copper wire if it is THHN.

If you are willing to drop down to a 50 Amp breaker 8 ga wire is OK.

Your ground wire can be on size smaller than the current carrying wires, i.e. 10 ga if you use 8 ga main wires, or 8 ga if you use 6 ga main wires.

I would really recommend using 240 volt service (3-wires). With 8 ga wires and a 50 Amp double breaker at the main panel, you can have the capacity for 12000 watts in the barn.

 

[bdeboer]

CALLING ALL ELECTRICIANS ... !


The first calculator inputs 1/2 of the run in its calculation and gives #4 copper wires as a result, the second asks for 100% of the length of the run and returns #2 ....

#1 Wire Size Calculator

#2 Wire Size Calculator

So ... which calculator is correct in this situation?


As usual, all opinions, advice and anecdotes are welcomed ...

Are you planning using direct burial, or are you going PVC with individual conductors? Using #4 copper the voltage drop would be about 4.9% vs. 3.1% for the #2.

Voltage Drop Calculator

 

[terry.dinerman]

The second method of running from a 60 amp breaker is the correct way, or you have to size the wire for the 200 amp breaker. There are exceptions to this if the conductors are under 10 feet etc.

Have you considered going to a 100 amp panel? When you start adding a microwave etc.

I had a feeling the "breaker at the panel" was going to be the correct method...keeps you from having a nuclear meltdown should the feeders get hung-up by some dummy on a tractor.......but it's always nice to get independent verification...

As far as "upgrading" top 100 amps....I really don't think the anticipated loads and surge would warrant more than 60 amps...the cost of copper wire is scaring me at 60 amps...I was dumbstruck at the price of the high voltage conductors and the transformer...and that was at the Commissariat of Power's prices.....the labor was actually pretty reasonable...

Anyway, thanks for the input, Brother....I like to do my learning before I put the shovel in the dirt and your advice will definitely go into the decision-making...:thumbsup:

BE SAFE!

 

[terry.dinerman]

I don't think you will be allowed to run these wires directly from the busses in the main panel. You must use a 60 Amp breaker in the main panel for them.

If you use a 60 Amp breaker in the main panel, this ampacity chart Ampacity Charts shows you will need 6 ga copper wire if it is THHN.

If you are willing to drop down to a 50 Amp breaker 8 ga wire is OK.

Your ground wire can be on size smaller than the current carrying wires, i.e. 10 ga if you use 8 ga main wires, or 8 ga if you use 6 ga main wires.

I would really recommend using 240 volt service (3-wires). With 8 ga wires and a 50 Amp double breaker at the main panel, you can have the capacity for 12000 watts in the barn.

OMG - ANOTHER chart / calculator....:confused2:

You know the old saying...."A man with one watch knows what time it is....a man with two watches is never sure..."

I AM going for 240VAC via three conductors, buried in conduit...

I rather hope your chart is right....your conductors seem a bit small according to the other "calculators"....

My math skills are right up there with my abilities at diplomacy, so I am hoping somebody can help me navigate the Code and make some sense of all this...

Thanks for the link...I will study this some-more and get back to you...!

BE SAFE!