A suggestion from the Pros, please.

[NCMau]

For the past 20 some years, I have been using an old Craftsman 240A AC welder which I converted to an AC/DC unit. For the most, my welding projects have been satisfactory, but the welds would never win a beauty contest.
After reading some posts in this forum, I realize that there is whole lot more to welding that I know, so I decided to ask for your wisdom on this project.
The project consist of extending the loader bucket tooth bar about 7" and welding one extra tooth to the bar. The bar is 1/2" x 4" and the tooth shank is 1-1/2" square.
I have a supply of 1/8" 6013 and 5/32" 7018 sticks. I have been using the 1/8" with 80/90 DCA with satisfactory results.
What is your suggestions on the rules of engagement and how much of bevel grind should I have?

 

[kennyd]

I asked a moderator to move this to the Welding forum for you

 

[Gizmo2]

Added two teeth to my backhoe bucket this past summer. Good old 7014, one pass each side than hit it hard with the 7018. Bevel, what bevel?
I would ask how big is your tractor?

OOPS, Just read the OP again, No Pro here!

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/john-deere-owning-operating/171608-46-bh-3-teeth.html

 

[mrmikey]

I presume the 1/2 x 4 flat is going to be butted to the exixting bar? If you want to go by normal standards the included angle is 60ｰ >< with a 1/8" or so nose.
If it were me and not having to go x-ray quality I'd use a mini grinder and grind the sharp corner off both pieces both sides and leave a good 1/8 to 3/16 gap so you can get good penetration. Run a good hot 6011 (preferably) or 6013 so you can get good penetration, grind out the back side and fill/cap with the 7018. Tilt the bucket so you're travelling uphill slightly, that'll keep the slag behind you and alternate from each side, if you don't it'll pull up.
If you're comfortable doing vertical, that would be even better as it allows you to get more penetration and gives you better visiblility.
The 1 1/2 shanks, if you've got 5/32 7018 a good single pass should do you, it'll give you a 1/4" fillett at least. Run a torch over them just to take the chill off before you start.....Mike

 

[jayste]

I presume the 1/2 x 4 flat is going to be butted to the exixting bar? If you want to go by normal standards the included angle is 60ｰ >< with a 1/8" or so nose.
If it were me and not having to go x-ray quality I'd use a mini grinder and grind the sharp corner off both pieces both sides and leave a good 1/8 to 3/16 gap so you can get good penetration. Run a good hot 6011 (preferably) or 6013 so you can get good penetration, grind out the back side and fill/cap with the 7018. Tilt the bucket so you're travelling uphill slightly, that'll keep the slag behind you and alternate from each side, if you don't it'll pull up.
If you're comfortable doing vertical, that would be even better as it allows you to get more penetration and gives you better visiblility.
The 1 1/2 shanks, if you've got 5/32 7018 a good single pass should do you, it'll give you a 1/4" fillett at least. Run a torch over them just to take the chill off before you start.....Mike

I wouldn't say I'm a pro by any form but Mike pretty much has it going on here.

 

[mrmikey]

I'm not a pro neither but I play one in real life LOL. Been a welder for.....crap over 35 years. Thanks guys, you just made me realize I'm old :laughing: .....Mike

 

[NCMau]

Added two teeth to my backhoe bucket this past summer. Good old 7014, one pass each side than hit it hard with the 7018. Bevel, what bevel?
I would ask how big is your tractor?

OOPS, Just read the OP again, No Pro here!

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/john-deere-owning-operating/171608-46-bh-3-teeth.html

Good, I am in the right group.
The tractor is an old iron 35HP with 66' BUCKET

 

[NCMau]

I'm not a pro neither but I play one in real life LOL. Been a welder for.....crap over 35 years. Thanks guys, you just made me realize I'm old :laughing: .....Mike

Thanks for the detailed direction Mike. Now I have a good idea how to approach it.
No, I don't do verticals. I usually go through lot of troubles to weld horizontal.
Run the torch to take the chill off is a pretty good tip.... Maury

 

[mrmikey]

Run the torch to take the chill off is a pretty good tip

Theory is it allows the metal, base and weld, to cool slower allowing the hydrogen time to release preventing underbead cracking. (Sometimes I amaze myself, remembered that from trade school LOL)

I usually go through lot of troubles to weld horizontal.

I find horizontal the worst, vertical, flat, overhead and horizontal from easiest to most difficult. Post pics when you're done.....Mike

 

[Gizmo2]

Theory is it allows the metal, base and weld, to cool slower allowing the hydrogen time to release preventing underbead cracking. (Sometimes I amaze myself, remembered that from trade school LOL)

I like to stick the rod for a few seconds also, it's nicer and easier to start out with a warm rod.

 

[NCMau]

Theory is it allows the metal, base and weld, to cool slower allowing the hydrogen time to release preventing underbead cracking. (Sometimes I amaze myself, remembered that from trade school LOL)


I find horizontal the worst, vertical, flat, overhead and horizontal from easiest to most difficult...Mike

I think I got my terminology screwed up. Maybe I meant flat. What is the difference between flat and horizontal?
One more question. I know that welding rods should be stored in a warm environment. I plan to use a wife rejected toaster oven. The lowest defrost mode may even be too high. Maybe a timer to go on an hour a day, or so...?
What you think?

 

[kjung17]

I never considered a toaster oven for a rod box. Good thinking. The rods should be ok to 300 degrees or so. At least get them over 212. Happy welding.

 

[Gary Fowler]

Cellulose coated rods like 6010 should not be heated. KEEP them dry and they will work ok. They actually need about 80% humidity to weld right. IF they get too dry the fingernail on you. That means the flux burns off on one side faster than the other. E7018 should be stored at 250-350 F and rebake (exposed to moisture for more than 24 hours is above 500F if I remember correctly. You arent going to overheat them in a conventional oven thats for sure. One reason to preheat metal when welding with low hydrogen xx18 series (7018,8018, 10018 etc) is so you dry out the moisture that when welded over will sometimes produce hydrogen embrittlement or underbead cracking on the weld. This will lead to premature failure of the weld as once it starts to crack it keep going like a crack in your windshield. I would put a 30-37 degree bevel on both sides of your flat bar. If you have a copper bar,you could c-clamp it flat against the bar on the back side and use it for a backer bar(t he weld wont stick to the copper). Leave about an 1/8" gap with a 1/16" land or face as properly called. The face of the bevel is the point where the bevel meets the back side. If you had 0" face it would be a knife edge. You could also do it with 0 face and close the gap to 1/16" and use all 7018 rods. Grind out the slag before you weld on the back side If you used a single V bevel you would need to clamp the ends tightly to keep it from raising on one end as the weld contracts. I prefer to use a double vee which looks like an X when viewed from the end rather than a V (hence double v) As mentioned, weld a pass on one side then weld one on the other, keep doing this till the bevel is level full. There is no need to make the weld any more than flush with the parent metal as it doesnt get any stronger and may get weaker if you put too much metal on as it creates stress risers on the metal which act like a glass cutter mark on glass as it creates a weak spot for a fracture to start. Hope I havent been too confusing.

 

[kjung17]

I stand corrected. Thanks for the input. I spent 6 years as a boilermaker (local 27). No experience with the cellulose coated rods. What are the advantages?

 

[mrmikey]

What is the difference between flat and horizontal?

90 deg. Sorry, couldn't resist
Simple explanation, butt joint, lay two pieces of plate on the table with a gap between them, that's flat. Stick 'em to the wall with the gap going left to right, that's horizontal. Turn 'em so the gap is top to bottom, vertical. Back to the origonal table, turn it upside down and hang it from the ceiling, that's overhead.
A 'T' joint, (fillett weld) is a bit harder to explain, _|_ is a T joint, looking at the little diagram, if you weld it setting like it is, it's a horizontal fillett, the axis of the weld is at 45 deg.. If you turn it 45 deg. clockwise it's flat, you're basically welding in a trough, a 'V' formed by the two pieces. Same explanation follows thru for the rest of the positions.
Now pipe, that's a totally different kettle of fish. I won't get into that, 2G, 5G, 6G etc. It's been years since I did any pipe and I've forgotten most of the designations.....Mike

 

[Chilly807]

I think I got my terminology screwed up. Maybe I meant flat. What is the difference between flat and horizontal?
One more question. I know that welding rods should be stored in a warm environment. I plan to use a wife rejected toaster oven. The lowest defrost mode may even be too high. Maybe a timer to go on an hour a day, or so...?
What you think?

I use a toaster oven, but only to recondition them. The Air Liquide brand rods I have (7018) call for 1 hour at 600-700 F to dry them, then 250-300 F for storage. I just dry them out, then vacuum seal them until I'm ready to use 'em.

I had to "fiddle" with the thermostat on the TO to get that kind of temperature, and it isn't something I'd recommend leaving to bake while you're out.

Sean

 

[Gary Fowler]

You could have used the Kenmore Pro oven I finally got them to take back without fiddling with the thermostat. It would get so hot that the ceramic coating on the liner melted above the heating element. Since that is basically glass, I guess that would be about 2400F.
I think you are on the right track though with backing them even if you only do it at the highest oven temperature of 500F or if you have a self cleaning oven, put it on self clean and try a batch. Then after cooling, vacuum seal them and they should be good forever if the seal isnt broken. May have to do this when the wife isnt home.

 

[NCMau]

90 deg. Sorry, couldn't resist
Simple explanation, butt joint, lay two pieces of plate on the table with a gap between them, that's flat. Stick 'em to the wall with the gap going left to right, that's horizontal. Turn 'em so the gap is top to bottom, vertical. Back to the origonal table, turn it upside down and hang it from the ceiling, that's overhead.
A 'T' joint, (fillett weld) is a bit harder to explain, _|_ is a T joint, looking at the little diagram, if you weld it setting like it is, it's a horizontal fillett, the axis of the weld is at 45 deg.. If you turn it 45 deg. clockwise it's flat, you're basically welding in a trough, a 'V' formed by the two pieces. Same explanation follows thru for the rest of the positions.
Now pipe, that's a totally different kettle of fish. I won't get into that, 2G, 5G, 6G etc. It's been years since I did any pipe and I've forgotten most of the designations.....Mike

Nooooooowwww I know. I guess my preferred mode is "Flat". Thanks.

 

[NCMau]

Cellulose coated rods like 6010 should not be heated. KEEP them dry and they will work ok. They actually need about 80% humidity to weld right. IF they get too dry the fingernail on you. That means the flux burns off on one side faster than the other. E7018 should be stored at 250-350 F and rebake (exposed to moisture for more than 24 hours is above 500F if I remember correctly. You arent going to overheat them in a conventional oven thats for sure. One reason to preheat metal when welding with low hydrogen xx18 series (7018,8018, 10018 etc) is so you dry out the moisture that when welded over will sometimes produce hydrogen embrittlement or underbead cracking on the weld. This will lead to premature failure of the weld as once it starts to crack it keep going like a crack in your windshield. I would put a 30-37 degree bevel on both sides of your flat bar. If you have a copper bar,you could c-clamp it flat against the bar on the back side and use it for a backer bar(t he weld wont stick to the copper). Leave about an 1/8" gap with a 1/16" land or face as properly called. The face of the bevel is the point where the bevel meets the back side. If you had 0" face it would be a knife edge. You could also do it with 0 face and close the gap to 1/16" and use all 7018 rods. Grind out the slag before you weld on the back side If you used a single V bevel you would need to clamp the ends tightly to keep it from raising on one end as the weld contracts. I prefer to use a double vee which looks like an X when viewed from the end rather than a V (hence double v) As mentioned, weld a pass on one side then weld one on the other, keep doing this till the bevel is level full. There is no need to make the weld any more than flush with the parent metal as it doesnt get any stronger and may get weaker if you put too much metal on as it creates stress risers on the metal which act like a glass cutter mark on glass as it creates a weak spot for a fracture to start. Hope I havent been too confusing.

Great explanation. Easy to digest. Do the 6011 rods follow the same rule as the 6010?

 

[Gary Fowler]

I found this website that has a good reference to all types of welding rods and an explanation of the coding system for each one to help you figure out what the rod is useful for in terms of tensile strength, flux type and welding positions to be used.

http://www.welding-technology-machi...lassification-by-american-AWS-ASTM-system.htm

I also found this one for rod storage requirements which lists a goodly number of rods and their storage requirements of which 6010, 6011, 6013 all require dry non heated storage. Most other requires some form of heated storage after the hermetic seal is broken.
http://www.rodovens.com/welding_articles/storage_chart.htm